How to Successfully Revive Game Franchises

[JWPlatt]

I was just thinking that if multiple independent groups held their own elections for representatives, it might have been interesting to watch the DRC be forced to choose and empower one set of them.

[Stucuk]

@Stucuk, you have completely lost me on how you implied democracy was representative of an imperfect system evolving to the idea of GoW and OU picking a council.

Could be cos it never evolved? Zardoz's posts read to me like Councils and Polls were imperfect and as a result its a bad idea to use any system that isn't perfect. So i stated that no system is perfect, even the ones that are heralded as the best. I stated that its better to use a system that isn't perfect than to have no system at all.

My post with the democracy line was intended to be read literally rather than between the lines. Ill write it in a more clear way:
"Its better to have an imperfect system than no system at all".

Nor have you shown me how a council will help regardless of how it comes to be. We have those that control what gets added to the main trunk now.

For source code we do. But that group is just the OpenURU, it isn't representative of everyone who contributes to URU's development and it doesn't cover anything other than source code changes. The concept of a council is to remove as much chaos as possible by having an organised body which reviews contributions, ideas, etc. Everything that i have posted has been in response to you stating that the main problem is that everyone has a different idea of what URU is. Thats what the council would decide. What ideas, etc are in keeping with URU. What should be officially part of URU.

[Zardoz]

@Stucuk, you have completely lost me on how you implied democracy was representative of an imperfect system evolving to the idea of GoW and OU picking a council.

Could be cos it never evolved? Zardoz's posts read to me like Councils and Polls were imperfect and as a result its a bad idea to use any system that isn't perfect. So i stated that no system is perfect, even the ones that are heralded as the best. I stated that its better to use a system that isn't perfect than to have no system at all.

My post with the democracy line was intended to be read literally rather than between the lines. Ill write it in a more clear way:
"Its better to have an imperfect system than no system at all".

That wasn't the point of my post. Let me quote myself:

Either a group of people....

The history of this approach in the Uru community suggests that it would be more chaotic and acrimonious than the alternative that Nalates envisions.

Having a group of non-Cyan people publicly control the Uru story would be worse than the alternative of not having such a group - that was my claim. You are claiming the opposite. Neither one of us can back up our claim with proof, but at least I have history on my side (or so I would argue), Winston Churchhill not withstanding. As for my comment about polls, that was to rebut the notion, so common in the forums, that polls can somehow represent the "will of the people." The idea that "some poll would be better than no poll" is nonsense - better at what?

But it sounds like you are clarifying your proposal to limit a Council's role to an "official" shard - which is just the FCAL process, isn't it? If so, I guess that would "work" in the sense that as long as Cyan acted as a gatekeeper for content on such a shard, then Cyan could farm out the storytelling process however it wanted to. That wouldn't apply to other shards, of course, other than Cyan trying to enforce its IP rights in its characters on those shards. The Council would be of no help there, however, so a "Some Council is better than no Council" argument could only apply to the "official"shard.

So bottom line seems to be this: You are arguing that some advancement of the One True Uru story is better than no advancement, and that a Council of Grand Poobahs would be one way to implement some advancement. The council could even use polls if it wished: Should Yeesha date Dr. Watson or Michael Engberg? You decide!!!!! Personally, I can't imagine that such a system would produce anything worthwhile unless, of course, I was the appointed the Grand Poobah of all Poobahs . . . which is precisely Nalates' point.

@Zardoz, I’ll concede that the election worked and the organization was organized. But, I would say the idea of liaisons did not work. I’m not at all sure the election provided credibility, at least not to the community. But, we may simply see the process and results differently. If you are right, would you think such an election is possible now? Would an election or some selection of a council serve a useful and effective purpose now?

I would argue that the election did provide credibility, but the only "proof" I can offer is the fact that the second election was so much smoother than the first, which at least suggests that the initial controversy over having liaisons had died done by then. I seem to recall that the second election drew as many votes if not more than the first, but I can't back that up as Cyan has locked away the DRC Liaison subforum in the DRC forums. As for electing a Council of Grand Poobahs, I would not support that for two reasons. First, skill in storytelling is probably unrelated to popularity among those who would vote, and so I don't see an election as an appropriate method for creating such council. Second, an elected Council (actually, any Council) could only function with Cyan's strong-willed and active support, which I have never seen the company give on a sustained basis for the nine years I've been involved in Uru (with the exception of the beta testing environments).

My personal opinion is that now is NOT the time to attempt a resurrection of the official storyline, at least not in ways that advance the story. (It's hard for me to be unbiased about that because I found the whole Bahro aspect of the official story so distressingly bad.) I would rather see lots of shards tell lots of stories. I would even support "Fantasy Shards" where the official DRC and other characters could be used with the understanding that nothing on those shards is "official." We have the beginnings of a great open source community of developers - what we need is an environment in which an open source community of storytellers can also arise and be nurtured. Given Cyan's focus on non-Uru matters for their own survival, I don't see how any top down system to advance the One True Uru would support such a community simply because it wouldn't function very well (see point about "Cyan's strong-willed and active support" above).

[Stucuk]

But it sounds like you are clarifying your proposal to limit a Council's role to an "official" shard - which is just the FCAL process, isn't it? If so, I guess that would "work" in the sense that as long as Cyan acted as a gatekeeper for content on such a shard, then Cyan could farm out the storytelling process however it wanted to. That wouldn't apply to other shards, of course, other than Cyan trying to enforce its IP rights in its characters on those shards. The Council would be of no help there, however, so a "Some Council is better than no Council" argument could only apply to the "official"shard.

I don't mean Cyans content. Only Cyan should decide what happens to there own story arc's/etc since they created them(Whoever writes a story arc should have full control over it imo). Yes pretty much like FCAL. Though my definition of Official is what is released to shards(In a nice package by the community) rather than just what is just found on Cyans shard.

So bottom line seems to be this: You are arguing that some advancement of the One True Uru story is better than no advancement, and that a Council of Grand Poobahs would be one way to implement some advancement. The council could even use polls if it wished: Should Yeesha date Dr. Watson or Michael Engberg? You decide!!!!! Personally, I can't imagine that such a system would produce anything worthwhile unless, of course, I was the appointed the Grand Poobah of all Poobahs . . . which is precisely Nalates' point.

Somehow i don't see that ever happening. Extreme examples which are never going to happen don't make for good arguments against something. The concept would be to review stuff and work out if it is URUish, not to become a TV Soap.

My personal opinion is that now is NOT the time to attempt a resurrection of the official storyline, at least not in ways that advance the story. (It's hard for me to be unbiased about that because I found the whole Bahro aspect of the official story so distressingly bad.) I would rather see lots of shards tell lots of stories.

IMO no one should touch any actual official story arcs or characters. People could create "Parallel" story arcs which show other events that happened at the same time, like what Half-Life:Opposing Force and Half-Life:Blue Shift did and have references to official characters(With both expansions you played as a different character who was around at the same time as Gordon Freeman, but you don't take part in the same events).

[Zardoz]

I don't mean Cyans content. Only Cyan should decide what happens to there own story arc's/etc since they created them(Whoever writes a story arc should have full control over it imo). Yes pretty much like FCAL. Though my definition of Official is what is released to shards(In a nice package by the community) rather than just what is just found on Cyans shard.

So, you are saying that there should be a Council that acts as a gatekeeper and passes judgment on any D'ni-related story on any shard?

Somehow i don't see that ever happening. Extreme examples which are never going to happen don't make for good arguments against something. The concept would be to review stuff and work out if it is URUish, not to become a TV Soap.

Actually, extreme examples are a good device for an argument (and not just a rhetorical one) because they establish the full extent of possibilities inherent in a principle. It demonstrates the difference between the Rule of Law and the Rule of Men, so to speak. Could such a Council stick to matters of fact (e.g., does this storyline avoid contradictions with existing official story, and does it not utilize existing Cyan characters?) or must it grapple with controversial judgments of taste (e.g., is a Yeesha-Dr Watson dalliance icky?) And such an example in fact was useful because it drew out another aspect of your proposal: That the Council would decide if a storyline was URU-ish enough to be declared official. I can imagine a dozen storylines that would lead Yeesha to a romantic interaction with one of the DRC, and it would be every bit as URU-ish as Phil Henderson acting like a hippie on LCD. Your reaction to that example suggests that the Council would in fact be empowered to impose their vision of URU-ish on the story-telling on all shards.

If I haven't completely misinterpreted things, I now return to my original set of questions: Who would create this council and how would they be empowered? Who would enforce their decisions, etc.? I suppose one way to do it would be to create a voluntary system of shards that ascribe to the Council of Grand Poobahs Stamp of Approval; but I don't see how such a system could have any effect on a shard that declined to join that system.

[Stucuk]

At one stage someone is going to package ages, server files, etc into one nice package for shard owners to download. I doubt it would be Cyan due to how little interest they currently have in MOULa (I know that they need to focus on things that make them money). So its likely to be the public (Proberly OpenURU or GoW) which makes packages that contain the basic stuff that a server needs(And yes i know Cyans content can't currently be re-distributed).

So what goes into that package is what a "Council" would decide. What stuff would be "Officialy" included in the package. It wouldn't restrict shards, it would just be the basic stuff thats included. Shards could easily not have ages/etc installed or install other stuff.

The benefit is that instead of shards just installing random ages and users having completely different experiences, you would find that most would keep the basic content that was approved. It also means that shards that choose to be "Pure" would offer an experience thats URU like, where you don't have ages/content that isn't anything like URU(i.e you wouldn't find planets from Starwars as ages).

because they establish the full extent of possibilities inherent in a principle

No they don't. They show the stupid extents which would never happen, they don't show the realistic possibilities(Hence why they are called extreme). Unrealistic examples do not form the basis of a good example because they are inherently unrealistic.

[Nalates]

@Zardoz, I agree the second election was smoother and less continuous. Also, how the liaison thing worked out had many factors contributing to the outcome. So, it is probably unfair to try and classify its success or failure.

… the time to attempt a resurrection of the official storyline… and … we need is an environment in which an open source community of storytellers can also arise and be nurtured…

Unless Cyan decides to do something, I too see no way for official story to advance. We do have some storytellers; a couple here, several on GoW, and a flock over at Devokan Trust. So, I expect you’ll get your preference to see lots of stories.

@Stucuk, …no Uru soaps… I thought the whole community was into soaps… (teasing). I think I understand your point and thanks for expanding to clarify earlier.

The problem still remains as to what is Uruish… there is a building style that is pretty well known in the game communities as Myst Style. I’ve always taken that as a look and feel. I’ve never thought of it applying to story. The lost civilization and do archeology to discover the game solution is not unique to Uru.

In SL there is Crux Isle, which has a Cyan FCAL for the build, an adventure and puzzles tied to the D’ni. A missing uncle, I think uncle, has to be found. It is very Uruish in many ways but it lacks the look of Myst-Uru because of the creators’ choices and SL limits. But, does it really qualify as Uruish? I think so. While the visuals may not remind one of any existing Uru age, the story is very D’ni-ish and I think very much in the style of Uru.

There are a number of builds in SL that are replicas of places in Uru. There is an amazing Great Zero. I’ve climbed on top of the machine to dance. Is that Uruish?

In OSGrid the Devokan builds and a Relto are definitely Uruish, at least to me. They are more story RP ages than puzzle ages. Do they qualify as Uruish? Several of us think so. I’ve built a modern day guild hall with offices for Dot and myself… it is mostly an experiment where I’m learning SL building. I’m slowly building a D’ni era guild hall based on Cyan art. Is that Uruish?

What would happen if Cyan allows a storyline link to one of these other worlds? Would that change what is and is not Uruish?

In SL it is common to see Myst-Uru stuff next to a Stargate or Doctor Who Tardis. For a time we had a very nice Eder Kemo built in a volcano caldera. It had a Stargate because the gate made it easier to get around to other Uruish builds.

There are some people with some interesting ideas as to what is and is not Uruish. How is any one group going to decide and then enforce their decisions?

If the council doesn’t have its own shard, how will limit what goes on a shard? How will it get others to go along with the council’s ideas of what is Uruish?

….ummm. Do I sound a bit like Zardoz?

[Stucuk]

There are some people with some interesting ideas as to what is and is not Uruish. How is any one group going to decide and then enforce their decisions?

If the council doesn’t have its own shard, how will limit what goes on a shard? How will it get others to go along with the council’s ideas of what is Uruish?

My previous post answers that. You don't enforce anything. You just decide what is the "default" contents for shards to download. You can never have a 100% definition of URUishness, which you are bound to know. You don't need to have a perfect system(as i tried to point out earlier no system is perfect).

You just need a system that gets it right most of the time. Like i said before shards can install or remove whatever ages they want. So even if someones contents wasn't approved to go in an "Official" server pack shard owners could still install it(And visa versa).

I see no real negatives to the system as Shard owners can still choose to install other ages or remove the default ages. Its a system that would help to bring order to chaos without limiting shard owners options.

[Zardoz]

I see no real negatives to the system as Shard owners can still choose to install other ages or remove the default ages. Its a system that would help to bring order to chaos without limiting shard owners options.

Then do it. Create such a Council and run it. Proof will be in the pudding, as shard owners will in fact have the choice to simply ignore the Council all together, correct? Or does "Official" mean that no shard will be allowed to exist unless they use the Council-approved package as a starting point for running a shard?

But you still seem to be conflating "order" and "URU-ishness." I can have order without trying to define and enforce some notion of URU-ishness. (BTW, appealing to extreme examples is a standard technique in Socratic dialogues, but I guess we're not having one . . . ) It's fine to suggest that a group get together and help shards by creating a standard package. Imbuing the package with "Official URU-ishness" just seems silly to me, and the idea that such a system will "[get] it right most of the time" presumes there is some way to define "URU-ishness" objectively, otherwise, how do you ever assess whether the Council "gets it right most of the time" ex post? In any case, since you still haven't told us who would create and empower the Council, I say, go for it!!

[Stucuk]

Then do it. Create such a Council and run it.

I am not in a position to create such a council as you are bound to know(Never understand why people use the "Then do it" argument). I do not have a majority stake in URU's development. It would have to comprise of people from each area of URU's development to work properly. Though the fact that i am not in a position to form a council doesn't make the idea null and void.

In any case, since you still haven't told us who would create and empower the Council, I say, go for it!!

Looks like you don't read my posts. I already stated that it would proberly have to be someone like OpenURU and GoW. People who are heavily involved in URU's development.

as shard owners will in fact have the choice to simply ignore the Council all together, correct

Even if Cyan for example decrees something shards don't have to listen. Kinda obvious that someone who owns a server can do whatever they want with it. That doesn't change anything however.

But you still seem to be conflating "order" and "URU-ishness."

Every thing i have said is in response to one line that Nalates has said(Which you and Nalates seem to ignore):
"Our challenge is that so many fans see Uru differently fans adherence to their concept of TRUE is going to be chaotic."

I have only ever suggested that if you have a group which defines what is "Officaly" URUish according to a council comprised of people who are actively developing URU then you will have more Order then if there is no system in place.

If shard owners can download a single package that contains community changes which were approved by a council then they are more likely to use that as the basis for there shard than if they had to download ages/etc seperatly. So you would likely have more order as a result and you would get the benefit of having a similar basic experience on all servers.

I have never talked about a perfect system where you have perfect order, i have only talked about a system that is likely to have better order than if there was no order.