How to Successfully Revive Game Franchises

[JWPlatt]

Proof will be in the pudding, as shard owners will in fact have the choice to simply ignore the Council all together, correct? Or does "Official" mean that no shard will be allowed to exist unless they use the Council-approved package as a starting point for running a shard?

You have written about persuasion before. Are you waiting for someone to mention the word?

Persuasion.

Create something in your own vision that you will enjoy doing. Do a good job and hope people like it. If they do, it's an attractor with a social gravity. Attract enough people and it is a de facto standard while still being completely voluntary. This is pretty much the way where there is no prior authority. Do a bad job and you'll go nowhere. If you get a bunch of groups doing the same thing, the greatest attractor - the most persuasive entity - generally wins until it starts to do a bad job. That seems fair, like natural selection. To further your cause while still being a voluntary organization, one can begin to introduce branding programs like seals of approval - "Looney Tunes Guild Seal of Approval - Kid Tested!" If most people believe your standards are good and honest, you can become that Council by voluntary consent of the people.

[Nalates]

@Stucuk, JWP makes the point from another perspective. Whatever is popular is chaotic. We don't know in advance what will be popular. It is different for each person. So, I can't see how attempting to control creation of ages will improve creativity.
[/@]

Any group or council however formed can't know what the majority of fans will think is Uruish. They may try to create a definition but that would be based on their idea of Uruish.

By allowing people to select what they like, organization comes out of the chaos. Humans seem to have a problem trusting that will happen. They want to know what is coming. Tremendous effort is put into attempting to predict and control the future. Free societies advance quickly and many see them as wasteful and chaotic. They are. But, compared to centrally controlled systems the chaotic systems are much more effective at creating positive results. This is because when a central control decides something is 'right' they are invested and getting their decision undone is difficult. Time and effort is wasted in centrally controlled systems when mistakes are made. The central decision process stops experimentation and stifles creativity. People debate what to do rather than doing.

[Stucuk]

So, I can't see how attempting to control creation of ages will improve creativity.

Who said anything about controlling the creation of anything. I have only mentioned about putting server files + ages in a package for shard owners to download. That doesn't remove the ability for people to create whatever they want. It also doesn't restrict shard owners. With what i proposed there is no control over anything, Its "persuasion" as JWP called it.

By having a single download for shard owners which contains the latest Server files + approved ages in one download you are likely to have shard owners downloading it(Because it would come from a group or groups considered as officially developing URU) rather than manually downloading things seperatly. Shard owners would still be able to download extra ages that havn't been approved or remove ages they didn't like. But you get less chaos.

JWP's post shows what could happen on its own. Its the same outcome as what im talking about, the only difference is setting up a group of people from all corners, rather than one group's download becoming the standard after X amount of months/years.

Any group or council however formed can't know what the majority of fans will think is Uruish. They may try to create a definition but that would be based on their idea of Uruish.

Everyone shares the same basic "Its URUish" values. When it comes to obvious things everyone in the URU community would agree, its the less obvious things which people may disagree on. Like i said before you don't need to have a perfect system to get benefits from it.

The main benefit you have with having some kind of approval system is that people who's work gets approved should find its self on the majority of shards. Compared to a system of anarchy where you can have a great age which doesn't get on most shards. Take PHPBB for example, there are alot of great mods that are not on the majority of PHPBB forums, everyone who makes a mod for PHPBB hopes that there mod will get integrated into PHPBB so that it becomes standard.

[Nalates]

Everyone shares the same basic "Its URUish" values. When it comes to obvious things everyone in the URU community would agree, its the less obvious things which people may disagree on. Like i said before you don't need to have a perfect system to get benefits from it.

This is where we disagree. In the history of Uru everyone has never agreed on anything… well… we all love Uru. But, why we love it is all over the map. Find something obvious about Uru you think everyone agrees on. I’ll jump in Google and find some number of people that disagree.

In the history of Uru every time it looked like some group was going to approve, evaluate, critique, or have much of any say about what might be included in Uru or on the shards, we’ve had a near rebellion from some faction of the community. It didn’t matter if it was Cyan or fans. People were not happy with the possibility. Many of the hard feelings in the community come from those efforts.

I understand what you mean by saying no one is controlling development with your idea of a committee, council, whatever. But, I am certain from previous experience that what you say and what people hear are not the same. A part of the community will see any council as a form of authority and control regardless of what you say. With no one controlling or supervising we have heated discussions on what will or won’t be included. Just give those people a target with a committee and watch what happens.

I probably won’t convince you and with my experience I’m not likely to be convinced your idea is good. So, as Zardoz and I are both telling you, go for it. If you succeed, yay! If not you’ll have more insight into what I’m trying to convey to you.

[Stucuk]

I don't think you understand based on what you have said. I will start from the beginning and hopefully what i say will be taken literally.

-----Concept-----

A download including all server related files (Minus Cyans content) would be placed on say OpenURU(Its an example). This download also includes ages which were approved by a group of people who are part of developing URU(People from all corners of the development). Shard owners can download the download and use it as the basis for there server but they can still download extra ages and add them to there server.

The only difference is your encouraging them to install a selection of ages which were approved by a bunch of people but if they don't like ages they can easily remove them and they can still add different ones. Shard owners would still have the Freedom to do whatever they like.

-----Example-----

If you take TeamFortress 2 for example. Server owners are lumped with maps valve have approved(There are community made ones that were approved). They however can still choose to download extra maps and remove valves ones. People do not complain because the servers still have full control over the contents that is on them. But as a result far more servers have the community made maps which were approved by valve than if valve never lumped them together with there own.

Now no one can force shard owners to download anything(Unlike Valve and TF2) but since it contains quite a few ages most should download it rather than just downloading the server software on its own.

-----Conclusion-----

Apart from shard owners not downloading it, what is the negatives given that shard owners can install/remove ages at will?

[Nalates]

We may be talking around one another.

The negative in your idea of having some selected group put together a package is the group making a selection and the idea of an APPROVED package.

Once one moves beyond a collection of all the available ages into selecting a set of ages and especially when adding the word approved, you'll get complaints. Even trying to have a rating system for ages is frowned on by some. GoMa was chewed on for maintaining a list of ages separate from GoW's list for GoMa inspection purposes.

Since age builders will build whatever age they want, storytellers will tell whatever story they want, repository operators will store whatever ages and code they want, and shard operators will include whatever ages they want... and these people want complete freedom to do as they please... I can't see how a selection committee adds anything but the possibility for conflict.

Without approvals and without a group people will develop a selection on their own. You seem convinced this process needs some guidance in the form of a group giving approval. I think that messes up the process.

Try it. See what happens.

[Stucuk]

I fail to see how the world ends by the main people who are developing uru(Which would include people from all aspects if done right) package some ages together. Your whole argument seems to be that some people won't like the idea, but with every idea you get that. So why bother trying any idea?

Your going to have a situation at one stage where OpenURU or GoW will approve certain additions to CWE, so its going to be the exact same situation. I guess you would suggest they don't add stuff to CWE as it could cause conflict......

Try it. See what happens.

Thats such an empty argument. If you read the requirements for the idea then you would know that its impossible for me to set it up.

[semplerfi]

Our challenge is that so many fans see Uru differently fans adherence to their concept of TRUE is going to be chaotic.

It won't be chaotic as long as there is a system in place to review ideas/etc. Either a group of people or Polls on a forum. You just need to make all new stuff be in line with what the majority of people think is "True to URU", you can never please everyone.

Nalates nails it with "Our challenge is that so many fans see Uru differently".

I do not believe it is possible to get a healthy majority on this one, proven to be very contentious, issue of what is "True to URU".

Yes Stucuk there would be less chaos with a system/process in place but because of the mass differences getting an excepted group or poll has proven to be as contentious if not more than the chaos issue that is trying to be fixed.

I believe you will find that the majority here is made up of all the differences and that any one view of what is true to URU (outside of Cyan) will be in the minority.

URU - You Are You... the name alone begs for individuality.

Slackers' have a motto - "You Do It".

[Nalates]

Try it, is not an argument or a debate strategy. It is an encouragement. I suspect you are going to have to go through the experience to understand my point. Your trying it is the only way either of us will have the proof need to change our opinion. You believe it is a good idea. Do you really believe it enough to go do it?

You can't see my point or you don't believe it. Having been through similar processes with this community I believe any approval process is more of a problem than a help. Since that doesn't seem reasonable to you and does to me, your creating the group, council, whatever and selecting ages from the 100+ we have now to create a package would be a good proof of your point. If you get it to work, I'll change my position and admit your right. Until then you haven't convinced me.

Creating a package of ages for the basic shard is not a bad idea. What I'm trying to get across and I think Zardoz is too, is that any group acting to approve anything in the community is going to have serious challenges. While that is not a reason NOT to do something, it is a reason to take an easier path that experience has shown to work.

I think JWP's point is that an approval committee, group, team, whatever is not needed because the result you hope for will occur naturally. If a package of ages for new shards is wanted by shard operators, it will be naturally created without the friction of an approval process.

[Stucuk]

but because of the mass differences getting an excepted group or poll has proven to be as contentious if not more than the chaos issue that is trying to be fixed.

As long as the "Council" is small then it shouldn't be chaos. If it is too large then it can work against you.

@Nalates:
"Try it" in this case wouldn't work. I can't try it because i could never sit on the council(At least based on what i can currently contribute... which isn't much due to my limited CWE knowledge). I also have no influence on anyone in the community so i can't encourage people to do anything and expect people to do anything, i can only suggest ideas which may or may not ever get picked up. Its not something i can do on my own.

I could see your point if it was something that was forced on the community. But your going to have exactly the same thing with actual shards. If a shard installs an age which people don't like they may complain, and visa versa if they don't install something which alot of there members think would be good. So given that its not going to be any different to other things which will happen, i don't see any reason why it would increase conflict any more than anything else.

From what i can tell your only objection is to two terms, "Approval" and "Council". But the concept is similar to "Nalates's Approved Good Idea List" in your Progressing URU thread where you have made a list of all the ideas which you think are good. The only real difference is instead of a dictatorship you have a group of people.

I think JWP's point is that an approval committee, group, team, whatever is not needed because the result you hope for will occur naturally. If a package of ages for new shards is wanted by shard operators, it will be naturally created without the friction of an approval process.

It would be the same thing. One group would be approving ages to go into there zip.

The main difference is that:
1) It wouldn't likely be comprised of a group of people that represent all aspects of URU Development
2) You would have anarchy before it would become standard, if it ever happens.