Another Choice in Addition to Relto

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The stranger
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Re: Replacing Relto

Post by The stranger »

Except Relto has no IC logic either. It is simply "Yeesha can do it because she's talented".
Well, it seems IC enough for me. We had those "talented" things for years, and it's still not IC? I know people hate yeesha and all, but unless they are willing to die, relto is the only solution which goes fine with the game. It's just something people will have to ignore, relto should simply be a sub-age and not a home.
Not far off. :lol: One possibility would be to have a wardrobe in the Neighborhood. It could be integrated as one of the doors to the surrounding apartments. You open the door and step inside, close the door and vanish from the hood only to arrive in a "hood closet". Since you closed the door, other avvies which need to change can still use the closet (which could lead to some humorous moments with lots of avatars pouring out of the closet :P )

As a closet, I was thinking of the egg room. You enter a cell, close the door behind you, and enter the closet mod. Well, it sound like a closet anyway, so why not?

Back to the books: sure, we could say that the DRC found lot's of books that link to a rescue age and gave them to us. But it sounds really odd. What are the chances that the DRC found over 1000 "rescue books"? why should they give them to us?

People died. That's what I know. D'ni maintainers died, with all their high-tech things. So yes, we can die.

I keep coming back to phil case. If we had an "always save" option, non of this drama would happen. The whole point is that phil wasn't wearing his RELTO BOOK, and *supposedly* died. What if we had a "never die" book thing? "What happened to phil up at the guilds hall, victor?!" "he didn't wear his relto book..." "oh no! he died?!" "no! he used his extra rescue age book and got out of there!" AND THEY LIVED HAPPILY EVER AFTER.

So yes, I stay with relto :roll: .
Gehn, lord of ages
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Re: Replacing Relto

Post by Gehn, lord of ages »

Baron wrote:
Gehn, lord of ages wrote:There is no way to get around the disappearing books IC.
Sure there is. There always is.
Yeah, but what I meant was "you have to explain it IC some way". You can't just explain it OOC (like how linking panels don't show people), because it would put up several IC logical problems.
Obviously not everyone is going to agree on what "improving" is - but that shouldn't stop us from discussing the potential merits of the proposals and working to build on each others ideas (rather than tearing them down).
Very true. However, tearing down has always been part of the process of building up. It helps us salvage the best pieces of all ideas. It's not "complaining", it's a refining.
The DRC should put a note on the book where they are saying that it's a modified relto that lowers it's "magic oddness"...
Their relto closet is blocked.
What exactly is modified? The no relto page part? Or what if they just put a lock on the door (so you can't go out and therefore can't even fall off or anything - also could maybe make it load faster)?

And why block the closet? Just to keep people in the 'hood more, or for some other reason?
Except Relto has no IC logic either. It is simply "Yeesha can do it because she's talented".
Ah, but that's an IC fact/appearance. It gives a reason for why the book can do all this, and why it is allowed to do all it does.
You simply prevent the player from using his rescue age book at any other point other than a panic link. The book falls into the pit/un-ending fall/etc.
And soon Gahreeson has a small mountain at this one spot... :lol:
Anyway, that is a good idea. Are there any panic linking spots, though, where you're just falling too much (and so books which don't need to survive falls would land in explorable areas below)? I can't think of any. Just make it link to the Nexus, then, and have a pile of books there (that the DRC or someone IC "restocks" at times) that the player automatically picks up. Yes, it is slightly odd for the DRC/whatever to be using so many books, but they have a reason (keeping people safe) and so perhaps can be excused. Nexus books would be printed out alot, so that explains it somewhat on how they get so much.

But let people start with Reltos (so they don't have to choose immediately), and then just give them up when they get their Nexus book.


So, in short: I'd stick with Sole Relto and just have the DRC deal with it. They could even just lock you in the Relto hut, reinforcing their commitment to safety, and your main home would be in the 'hood (I'm still going with letting them physically get relto pages, but not being "allowed" to have them - more drama, more free choice, and they can't use most of them anyway). As for "Rescue Ages", I'd be okay with one where you link to the Nexus, or another already explained Age that would have some reason for mass produced books (and that you can't panic link from), and where the book is only for panic linking, where the book would be destroyed or removed by natural causes anyway.
My posts represent the views of me, Gehn, lord of ages, and not any companies or groups which I don't belong to. :D
admin
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Re: Replacing Relto

Post by admin »

Gehn, lord of ages wrote:I totally disagree. That would make a completely illogical IC event. Uru is based on logic and reality, and so this is not an acceptable solution.
It is acceptable to others or the idea would not have been presented. Try not to generalize on your own preferences. Then follow criticism with positive, supporting alternatives by answering the "why?" behind the claim. Why is it illogical? What in Uru is based on logic and reality? What isn't? Are there no reasonable exceptions?
Gehn, lord of ages wrote:tearing down has always been part of the process of building up. It helps us salvage the best pieces of all ideas.
Not on this forum. Cherry pick from good ideas to acknowledge strengths, reach compromise, and build better solutions, certainly - but tearing down is discouraged here. I was waiting to see what the response would be before commenting. I was hoping for contrite recognition that constructive criticism and opinion are the correct way to present and discuss ideas. The notion of applying the trite analogy for the biological function of muscular exercise - tearing down to build up - to human discourse is a slippery slope which is not supported by the fundamental positive spirit of cooperation we seek here.

The best possible course is to persuade others with your own concepts without doing it at others' expense. For example, wiki articles provide a clear opportunity to present one's own opposing theory and creative disagreement. Disagreements can be implicit between theories, or reference opposing viewpoints fairly, but need not elevate themselves by denigrating others or using blanket statements. There's plenty of room for everyone to express themselves and there is no authority to proclaim which idea is better. Please use these forums constructively to retain and elicit similarly positive contributions from others.
The stranger
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Re: Replacing Relto

Post by The stranger »

mmm... I got an idea!

Okay, okay. Autherizeds WON'T have a relto. They will have a book to the nexus, and a book to the 'hood. Everytime they link, they ICly take another book from the nexus/'hood, so they have an unlimited amount of books.

They WON'T be able to use the books everywhere. These books (nexus at earth areas, 'hood at ages) will be:

1) automatically used at panic links.

2) used at panic areas. What are "panic areas"? these are areas with no nexus books near by- like the minkata desert, closed areas- like gahreesen prison, or puzzle areas- like the the kadish tolesa pillers room. In these areas, one can use his 'hood/nexus book. The book drops to the ground. So, where it goes, you ask? NOWHERE. It stays there, until I take it back. So how are we avoiding a sea of books all over the age? there will be a certain distance between where you can use the books. So one will have a good amount of nexus/hood books around, and if there isn't- he can use a book. So the books act like books would, while not stacking up.

Though we should make it fair. If autherizeds won't have relto, than gathered shouldn't get access to the 'hoods. My suggestion: the book in relto should link to the real bevin 'hood.

That's it. No disappearing books. Just books.
Gehn, lord of ages
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Re: Replacing Relto

Post by Gehn, lord of ages »

I totally disagree. That would make a completely illogical IC event. Uru is based on logic and reality, and so this is not an acceptable solution.
It is acceptable to others or the idea would not have been presented. Try not to generalize on your own preferences. Then follow criticism with positive, supporting alternatives by answering the "why?" behind the claim. Why is it illogical? What in Uru is based on logic and reality? What isn't? Are there no reasonable exceptions?
I apologize, that was overly harsh, and I did not make a clear attempt to explain.

Let me try to break down this statement.

My two arguments here were
Illogicality (is that a word?): Since the books have to be replaced afterwards (as I assume would be the case, as the book was presumably "lost" when it fell and disappeared), and since the logical result of regular linking books being linked through in accordance to the D'ni process of linking is that the book falls down and stays there, there either should be a book on the ground - or there should be something that explains why there is not. There has to be some explanation.

Uru based on logic: Uru has tried to be based as strongly as possible on logic and an appearance of reality. There are no arbitrary "classes" or "leveling up", instead you are a real person - yourself - who is in a "real" place. The Uruverse is connected to the real-world universe (since there are humans, the surface, etc.) and so follows the laws of physics - with some additions. I think that all people will agree with me that the additions do not include the vaporization of books.

Since this is not a solution to a gameplay issue (such as how the closet works instead of just you pulling out clothes or something) or a tech issue (such as how linking books don't show people), but instead an IC logic issue (why in the world do DRC followers use Relto books?), then it should be forming an IC logical answer. In my opinion, a physics problem is more starkly illogical then a personality problem (especially where there are ways to resolve the personality problem that are simpler than adding new pieces to the laws of physics).

Does that make more sense?
Not on this forum. Cherry pick from good ideas to acknowledge strengths, reach compromise, and build better solutions, certainly - but tearing down is discouraged here. I was waiting to see what the response would be before commenting. I was hoping for a contrite recognition that constructive criticism and opinion are the correct way to present and discuss ideas. The notion of applying the trite analogy for the biological function of muscular exercise - tearing down to build up - to human discourse is a slippery slope which is not supported by the fundamental positive spirit of cooperation we seek here.
(That's a muscular excersize analogy? :shock: ) Again, I was too harsh. However, I think we are approaching this with differing views on "tearing down". I had not been thinking perhaps of the psychological harshness of my former post, and so was using the term "tearing down" for the same purpose that you use "constructive criticism and opinion" - the ordered "tearing down" of a house by construction workers seeking to build a better one, not the hateful "tearing down" of a building by angry protesters. I simply used the term "tearing down" because it was used in the quote I was replying to, when a more tactful and clearly unantagonistic phrasing would have been better.

So I am sorry, Marten and others. I did not intend my words to be taken in the manner that I am now shown was probably the case. If it helps, I'm often the harshest when I see something good in an idea. I'm a little hasty to get to the gold that I destroy everything else - (rhetorically) violently. Please ignore that, I genuinely am not trying to attack or hurt, I'm just careless.

Oh, another post came in.
2) used at panic areas. What are "panic areas"? these are areas with no nexus books near by- like the minkata desert, closed areas- like gahreesen prison, or puzzle areas- like the the kadish tolesa pillers room. In these areas, one can use his 'hood/nexus book. The book drops to the ground. So, where it goes, you ask? NOWHERE. It stays there, until I take it back. So how are we avoiding a sea of books all over the age? there will be a certain distance between where you can use the books. So one will have a good amount of nexus/hood books around, and if there isn't- he can use a book. So the books act like books would, while not stacking up.
May I ask why you need a 'hood book? Doesn't the Nexus have one for you? That would give you one less book to carry around.
And who collects the books? Can I collect another person's book (and so clear enough room for myself to link away)? And since everyone will leave behind a book when they link away from collecting a book, wouldn't that stack up?

I agree that Relto users shouldn't have the same access to hoods if that is how it is done. Maybe they can have a limited 'hood, without rooms or closets or all. Or regular bevin as you suggested.
My posts represent the views of me, Gehn, lord of ages, and not any companies or groups which I don't belong to. :D
The stranger
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Re: Replacing Relto

Post by The stranger »

And who collects the books?
Everyone in an age. Remember: one will be able to use the books only in a private version of the age- that's why public places shouldn't have these "you may get stuck somewhere" puzzles.

Maybe there should also be a "collect near-by book" option, where one will automatically go to the near by book and take it. It may be good for visitors in the age.
And since everyone will leave behind a book when they link away from collecting a book, wouldn't that stack up?
I don't understand your question, I think. It's really simple. Collecting a book doesn't mean using it. It means simply taking it. I think that the only reason that this book taking exist is in order to make the age look "cleaner" where you don't need those books anymore. So no, it shouldn't stack up. You can either 1) go to those books and link or 2) go to those books and take them.
May I ask why you need a 'hood book? Doesn't the Nexus have one for you? That would give you one less book to carry around.
I know, but... I think that when they can, books should link to your home 'hood (when you are not at earth, obviously). I think these books should link to the 'hood. The only reason the nexus comes to the picture is because the 'hood books can't work on earth.
Gehn, lord of ages
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Re: Replacing Relto

Post by Gehn, lord of ages »

Maybe there should also be a "collect near-by book" option, where one will automatically go to the near by book and take it. It may be good for visitors in the age.
Hmm, that sounds hard. I know that my avatar in ABM had troubles just walking a foot in front of him without my guidance (the footpedal in the Cleft - my avatar fell off the side of the cliff... and then magically flew back up again). And if it is manual, then people could trap or annoy people by hiding books just far enough apart so that there was no area to link out.
I don't understand your question, I think. It's really simple. Collecting a book doesn't mean using it. It means simply taking it. I think that the only reason that this book taking exist is in order to make the age look "cleaner" where you don't need those books anymore. So no, it shouldn't stack up. You can either 1) go to those books and link or 2) go to those books and take them.
But every time you leave an area like Gahreeson prison, where you're stuck, you have to leave a book behind. If a lot of people go through a private Age, or if a public Age happens to have a "you may get stuck somewhere" puzzle (and with all the different instancing proposals/new Ages, that is quite possible), then there could be an annoying amount lying around unless somebody takes it as their task to pick up people's books.

Okay, let's look at some other things. What happens if I link out over Eder Gira's pools? Can I pick that book up again? Or over a steamvent (and if I left it there, would it be shot through the air?)? If so - how? If not - how do we mark what areas destroy books?
I know, but... I think that when they can, books should link to your home 'hood (when you are not at earth, obviously). I think these books should link to the 'hood. The only reason the nexus comes to the picture is because the 'hood books can't work on earth.
The Nexus is only one small step away from the 'hood. Do people really feel more at home in Relto because they go there every time they panic link (because that's why you want it, right? The psychological aspect.) and then take two steps through to pull out whatever book they were just at (cough, cough, Gahreeson ;) )? Unlike Yeesha, the DRC is handing out these books solely to keep explorers safe - not to give them a home. Therefore, the DRC path can be different, and the panic-linking and personalized-home parts can be separate entities all together.


How many areas would be "you may get stuck somewhere"? If there are very few of them, I think the plan would work okay. Or maybe autherized explorers could get special private versions with books out in every place you can get stuck? Maybe also have a cheat code that could be used to link out if you got stuck in a spot that nobody had thought of before - and then it would be OOC enough to remove the book entirely?
My posts represent the views of me, Gehn, lord of ages, and not any companies or groups which I don't belong to. :D
Baron
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Re: Replacing Relto

Post by Baron »

First of all, thanks for the reminder to keep the discourse civil.

The discussion is taking some cool new turns, but I want to say a little bit more about book logic, just to make sure we don't rule out some worthwhile options.


It is possible to view Yeesha's accomplishments as "magic," but I do not see it that way. I see her as an experimenter with brilliant insight, willing to implement Writings without confining herself to the limits set by the Guild.

The limits, I would suggest, are not inherent in the technology of Writing itself. Anyone can accomplish more dramatic effects than original D'ni books perform, just by writing things the Guild forbade its members from including. And that's all Yeesha did.

(The Bahro may seem more magical, but their capabilities are explainable as an inherent biological capacity to manipulate the same structures that Writing does.)

Is there an assumption somewhere that linking books or Relto books are somehow encoded or illegible? Wouldn't a modern researcher, with a growing knowledge of the Art, be able to look through a Relto book and see exactly what Yeesha's innovations are, then copy them?
Gehn wrote:Why does it fade out? The D'ni did not write books to fade away - so the only explanation would be an illogical amount of technology (vaporizers? Attached to books just because the D'ni or DRC thinks the rare valuable things are so common to be thrown away?) or even more Yeesha/Bahro magic than Relto.
It's not illogical. The D'ni were used to having to leave their return-trip linking books in carefully guarded or hidden locations, to prevent hostile natives in an Age from following the D'ni home. If (mere weeks before the city fell, let's say) they came up with panic-linking technology, it would have forced them to also develop a way not to leave a book behind.

If we instead decide to say that Authorized panic linking is something new (worked out by the DRC or some other modern entity) it still makes sense to destroy the linking document in order to keep from being followed.

So far as "rare" and "valuable" are concerned, maybe the materials aren't as hard to come by as we thought. Perhaps someone has found the books for the Ages where the appropriate trees and bugs are harvested.

I'm also not convinced that Writings have to be written into bound volumes. Why wouldn't a single (disposable, easily-replaced) page be enough to create some effects, such as panic linking? Potentially the page would incorporate a descriptive book, or other Writings, by reference.


Anyway, despite the fun I've had defending the self-destruction option, I like Whilyam's basic notion. I'd boil it down to "The DRC (or equivalent) have figured out how to author Nexus books that let us panic link, but that stay with us instead of being left behind." It's tidy.
Gehn, lord of ages
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Re: Replacing Relto

Post by Gehn, lord of ages »

It's not illogical. The D'ni were used to having to leave their return-trip linking books in carefully guarded or hidden locations, to prevent hostile natives in an Age from following the D'ni home. If (mere weeks before the city fell, let's say) they came up with panic-linking technology, it would have forced them to also develop a way not to leave a book behind.

If we instead decide to say that Authorized panic linking is something new (worked out by the DRC or some other modern entity) it still makes sense to destroy the linking document in order to keep from being followed.
I mean that we have no indication, and few things we can twist and make into indications, that the D'ni would/could/thought of doing that. And uh, who is the DRC afraid of? The cavern is supposed to be safe, and since proposals for the book link to the Nexus or a 'hood... It's not like there's a Cavern Mafia.
So far as "rare" and "valuable" are concerned, maybe the materials aren't as hard to come by as we thought. Perhaps someone has found the books for the Ages where the appropriate trees and bugs are harvested.
But still, other avenues show even less need for big "breakthroughs" and new information.
I'm also not convinced that Writings have to be written into bound volumes. Why wouldn't a single (disposable, easily-replaced) page be enough to create some effects, such as panic linking? Potentially the page would incorporate a descriptive book, or other Writings, by reference.
Ever played Myst IV? It's possible. I don't think the D'ni used them much, though.
Anyway, despite the fun I've had defending the self-destruction option, I like Whilyam's basic notion. I'd boil it down to "The DRC (or equivalent) have figured out how to author Nexus books that let us panic link, but that stay with us instead of being left behind." It's tidy.
Hmm... what if someone experimented with the Relto book and discovered that that one effect was all in one "chapter" of the book (which would make sense, since even Yeesha would probably try to be somewhat orderly in her books, just to make sure she doesn't forget something)? So, when you get a DRC Nexus (or whatever) book, they just tear that section out and bind it into the Nexus book. They won't need the Relto, anyway. If they want to go back, well, let them put the section back in the Relto book then.

I'm just not into the whole "humans go into a the ruins of a technologically competent civilization, find what is left of a long forgotten, super elaborate, and secret (many parts of it were to much of D'ni) art, and in a few years can do it far better than the original people".
My posts represent the views of me, Gehn, lord of ages, and not any companies or groups which I don't belong to. :D
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Re: Replacing Relto

Post by rarified »

I just had a bit of time to digest the recent discussion and would like to add something that came to mind, not having formed a solution to promote.

Thinking for a moment IC, the DRC placed barriers and cones because the Cavern was dangerous. That implied bad things could happen. The original MOUL was created under the constraint that players could not be harmed or die. But that isn't completely real, even if it is part of the philosophy of gentler gameplay.

What if instead of trying to conjure up an alternative mechanism for panic linking by having Yeesha provide a Relto book, that when a bad thing happens, the IC player is placed in a limbo state? A misty non-navigable place. Not much that they can do to help themselves.

But we take advantage of the fact that since They had not been freed by going through Yeesha's path to release them, a Bahro eventually appears and links the explorer back to a safe place (like the cauldera) as part of the storyline that the Bahro looked after (or served) the D'ni. Would this be more true to the existing history/canon and yet not require gymnastics to explain? They already inherantly had the linking capability.
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