Another Choice in Addition to Relto

[Marten]

Yeah, I have to admit... at this point I think, even if someone was (still) convinced that Relto was evil voodoo, any sane person would still rather have the book by his or her side than fall to death.

[Gehn, lord of ages]

Yeah, I have to admit... at this point I think, even if someone was (still) convinced that Rel.to was evil voodoo, any sane person would still rather have the book by his or her side than fall to death.

Yeah. You might avoid staying in Relto long, or developing it or something, but even the DRC isn't crazy enough to die just because they don't like Yeesha.

[The stranger]

So, if we get relto, than I guess the gathered can return to the 'hoods.

[Baron]

That's a very good point. Replacing the book before (re)entering dangerous areas would have to be enforced somehow, just as one cannot visit Ae'gura without a KI.

If we put the panic-link capability in the newly-discovered "KI Plus" and used Nexus as the panic link destination, the system could be rigged so that Nexus wouldn't operate until the user put another panic link document into the KI.

I mean that we have no indication, and few things we can twist and make into indications, that the D'ni would/could/thought of doing that.

Panic linking from random locations is a feature that they could be expected to want after generations of having to deal with the limitations of traditional linking books. Unwillingness to leave a linking book behind is consistent with existing knowledge of their cautious policies regarding linking.

Going forward, I hope that creativity in user-created content won't be stifled by some notion that everything we might want to present must be based on specific indications in the existing content. I agree that we don't want to introduce things that are out of character or illogical, but let's not bind ourselves unnecessarily.

One of the greatest things about the concept of D'ni and the Art is how many stories can be told in it. To the extent Cyan allows, let's expand the setting.

And uh, who is the DRC afraid of? The cavern is supposed to be safe, and since proposals for the book link to the Nexus or a 'hood... It's not like there's a Cavern Mafia.

The point isn't threats that originate in the cavern, it's dangerous locals in the Ages. Let's say the D'ni allowed themselves to leave linking books behind at random locations on a regular basis. Eventually a thug, a cannibal (or any sufficiently humanoid carnivorous lifeform) finds and uses a linking book. Now anyone who shows up in the Nexus/rescue Age gets a nasty surprise.

Hmm... what if someone experimented with the Relto book and discovered that that one effect was all in one "chapter" of the book (which would make sense, since even Yeesha would probably try to be somewhat orderly in her books, just to make sure she doesn't forget something)? So, when you get a DRC Nexus (or whatever) book, they just tear that section out and bind it into the Nexus book. They won't need the Relto, anyway. If they want to go back, well, let them put the section back in the Relto book then.

It's interesting! It'd be a tidy way to keep each explorer on one plan or the other, but with an easy way to switch back. (And I find the idea of Yeesha using object oriented techniques rather satisfying. )

But aren't we supposed to be writing new Ages from scratch, now? Somewhere between Dr. Watson's and Yeesha's appearances at the very end of Gametap Uru, that's the sense I got. We are being asked to write new Ages, one of which will hopefully provide resources that will help to solve the evil Bahro menace. If new writing is an element of the storyline under open source, we'd have to explain why people aren't just copying passages from Yeesha's text, without the borrowing of pages.

I'm just not into the whole "humans go into a the ruins of a technologically competent civilization, find what is left of a long forgotten, super elaborate, and secret (many parts of it were to much of D'ni) art, and in a few years can do it far better than the original people".

This (handling the matter in a satisfyingly realistic way) is a concern that I hope we will always bear in mind, but I think Cyan's intention was to make explorers practitioners of the Art, as noted above. Ah, might as well get the actual wording. Here's Dr. Watson's quote:

Yeesha has already been to hundreds of Ages, looking for something, anything, that might help to end the Bahro conflict, or, at the very least, help to protect us from it in case there comes a time when the "good" Bahro are no longer able to. As time passes, it grows increasingly unlikely that anything is going to be found in an Age the D'ni have or had access to. And so, we are going to need new Ages at some point. There are those among the Explorers who may eventually be able to assist in that regard. That is the direction I believe we must take. The Guilds (and even the Explorers who are not interested in joining a Guild) will have to work together: writing, maintaining, mapping, and exploring those new Ages.

(The full text of the speech can be found at http://www.uruobsession.com/forum/index ... 56&t=31650.)

Gehn has an important point on the IC front - The D'ni has been at this for thousands of years, while we've only had (at most) a couple dozen years or so to decipher what they did. However, I can't fully discount the ability of a modern person's ability to reverse-engineer something.

Agreed -- on both points.

But even beyond what can be worked out via reverse engineering, modern visitors to D'ni (which may mean the DRC but not the average explorer) have access to whatever documents might be found throughout the city (give or take what Gehn and Atrus may have removed, which are presumably now on Yeesha's desk). Sure, while the D'ni lived, a common citizen wouldn't have access to any of the Guild of Writers' secrets, but a sufficiently-determined person in the present can find their guild hall, break into it, and eventually (after solving puzzles worse than Riven's?) ransack their resources.

This would mean access to:

• Language primers used to teach the novice Writers the exact dialect used in the Art
• An archive of how the list of rules (the ones Yeesha ignores at her whim) was revised and expanded over time
• Documentation of failures in Age creation
• Design guidelines for writing experimental Ages
• A list of future concepts the Guild hadn't gotten around to implementing

Plus whatever can be gathered from reading through the Relto book.

So wait, even tweek, the master of those who want another option than relto books, think everyone need a relto book?

I am hoping Tweek was just having a moment of doubt.

[The stranger]

Well, you know what, I had my own vision for the whole fans ages stuff, but I was afraid of people reactions, especially the GoW. But I'll still say it, it can't get out of hands I guess:

I never thought the traditional concept of age writing (a person opens blender, do everything in the age on his own, release it) would work very well. I like the idea of a large project. It could work like that: let's say a writer wants to make an age. First, he will have to gather a group of all guilds, like 5 people from each guild. Now, they gather and somewhere and decide on the age they want to do- concept, puzzles (or not), goal or whatever. Than, the writers make the age, another guild (aritists, maybe. I thought tweek or someone opend "the guild of fine art") work on the textures. Maintainer test for bugs, messengers do the whole community messages thing. Of course, the orgenizer can add whichever guild he wants. So, once the age is done it's released and the community gets a new age. And remember, this is only 1 group. If we had 5 groups, each makes a medium size age, we had 5 quality fans ages in a month.

But it probably won't work now, nevermind.

[Mac_Fife]

I never thought the traditional concept of age writing (a person opens blender, do everything in the age on his own, release it) would work very well. I like the idea of a large project.

This is actually going off-topic, but I'll agree with you in the hope that this gets moved to thread of its own in due course

I don't know if it's a generally held thought, but I can see that some people would want to take the IC image of age writing (i.e. essentially a one-person effort) and apply it to the OOC act of age creation. However it would seem to be a a rare occurence to find a single person who is a) a good graphic artist, b) a good puzzle creator, c) a good D'Ni historian, d) a good coder and e) a good map maker, so I'd expect the best efforts will come from collaborations between people of assorted skills. This is the way of most "professional" game studios, and indeed is the fundamental pupose behind the services JW_Platt is offering here on OpenURU.org.

[Gehn, lord of ages]

That's a very good point. Replacing the book before (re)entering dangerous areas would have to be enforced somehow, just as one cannot visit Ae'gura without a KI.

If we put the panic-link capability in the newly-discovered "KI Plus" and used Nexus as the panic link destination, the system could be rigged so that Nexus wouldn't operate until the user put another panic link document into the KI.

You have to stick your KI into a machine anyway to get it started, right? So no problem there.

Hmm... what if someone experimented with the Relto book and discovered that that one effect was all in one "chapter" of the book (which would make sense, since even Yeesha would probably try to be somewhat orderly in her books, just to make sure she doesn't forget something)? So, when you get a DRC Nexus (or whatever) book, they just tear that section out and bind it into the Nexus book. They won't need the Relto, anyway. If they want to go back, well, let them put the section back in the Relto book then.

It's interesting! It'd be a tidy way to keep each explorer on one plan or the other, but with an easy way to switch back. (And I find the idea of Yeesha using object oriented techniques rather satisfying. )

But aren't we supposed to be writing new Ages from scratch, now? Somewhere between Dr. Watson's and Yeesha's appearances at the very end of Gametap Uru, that's the sense I got. We are being asked to write new Ages, one of which will hopefully provide resources that will help to solve the evil Bahro menace. If new writing is an element of the storyline under open source, we'd have to explain why people aren't just copying passages from Yeesha's text, without the borrowing of pages.

Why take the time to painstakingly copy out a long complex passage when you can just borrow the pages? Since this borrowing would be done a lot, people want to be spending their time on other things - like new Ages.

I'm just not into the whole "humans go into a the ruins of a technologically competent civilization, find what is left of a long forgotten, super elaborate, and secret (many parts of it were to much of D'ni) art, and in a few years can do it far better than the original people".

This (handling the matter in a satisfyingly realistic way) is a concern that I hope we will always bear in mind, but I think Cyan's intention was to make explorers practitioners of the Art, as noted above. Ah, might as well get the actual wording. Here's Dr. Watson's quote:

Yes, I agree. However, the thing I was referencing was something the D'ni were never able to do (have the book follow the link). Even in things the D'ni were able to do, give explorers some time before figuring out the most complex and secret things. We aren't all that brilliantly intelligent, you know.

I never thought the traditional concept of age writing (a person opens blender, do everything in the age on his own, release it) would work very well. I like the idea of a large project. It could work like that: let's say a writer wants to make an age. First, he will have to gather a group of all guilds, like 5 people from each guild. Now, they gather and somewhere and decide on the age they want to do- concept, puzzles (or not), goal or whatever. Than, the writers make the age, another guild (aritists, maybe. I thought tweek or someone opend "the guild of fine art") work on the textures. Maintainer test for bugs, messengers do the whole community messages thing. Of course, the orgenizer can add whichever guild he wants. So, once the age is done it's released and the community gets a new age. And remember, this is only 1 group. If we had 5 groups, each makes a medium size age, we had 5 quality fans ages in a month.

That's currently the concept behind the David's Journey team. Everybody does what they are best at (can I insert self-advertising comment telling people to "go and look at it, because we could use all the help we can get to get the project started" here? ).

[admin]

(can I insert self-advertising comment telling people to "go and look at it, because we could use all the help we can get to get the project started" here? ).

Absolutely. OpenURU.org is a place for the exchange of ideas and talent. The success or failure of any one project shines on or darkens the community for everyone.

Everyone, go look at David's Journey.
viewforum.php?f=18

Ok, back to the topic.

[Tweek]

The D'ni Historian in me says the KI is for communication not Linking.

Yes we're supposed to be writing Ages from scratch, however there is room to create fan ages that are D'ni Ages, Cyan drew up guidelines for doing this, the question is whether it is still viable for MOUL.

As for doing it better than the original people, who says we are? So far everything I've seen is the opposite.

Atrus learned to write in a few years, some of us have been in D'ni for over 6 years, some have been studying D'ni for longer, so it isn't a stretch (in my mind anyway) that it is possible for people to learn it.

And no I wasn't having a moment of doubt, nor am I the master of people having another option to a Relto book, what I suggest is another option to Yeesha's path, there is room to have that option yet still give people a Relto book.

As for TS's comments on Age writing, I think it is up to the individual person, if people want to work in groups they can, if not then they don't. Whilst you may feel it doesn't work very well for you it does for others, from experience I know me going ahead and doing something myself works better than me relying on others to help.

Even with a group of people, a single month is kind of understating the amount of time it takes to work on an Age, also in a group if you're relying on others you have to wait for them to get things done that you need if they are delayed.

I don't know if it's a generally held thought, but I can see that some people would want to take the IC image of age writing (i.e. essentially a one-person effort) and apply it to the OOC act of age creation. However it would seem to be a a rare occurence to find a single person who is a) a good graphic artist, b) a good puzzle creator, c) a good D'Ni historian, d) a good coder and e) a good map maker,

Well as for me;
a) I can do graphics
b) I'm ok with puzzle creation, not given it a lot of thought as I don't play for puzzles so I don't use them in my Ages.
c) D'ni History is my field.
d) Well room for improvement I've only been Age building since last september
e) depends what you mean by map, if you mean it in the traditional sense of the word I can do that, I start all Age concepts with a map, if you are talking about the term like "quake map" then that would be a combination of the above aspects.

But then I studied at school/college/uni with building worlds in mind.

As for things the D'ni could never do, I don't put that down as a lack of skill, it is entirely possible that given the chance they could do things, instead I put it down to the fact that they heavily restricted the Art with self imposed rules.

Whilst we obey some rules, we don't have a government enforcing them thus we are open to experiment with the Art.

[realXCV]

The D'ni Historian in me says the KI is for communication not Linking.

The URU/MOUL/OSMO/MORE/MOOS/MOOSE/whatever player in me says the same thing.