Another Choice in Addition to Relto

[Mac_Fife]

e) depends what you mean by map, if you mean it in the traditional sense of the word I can do that, I start all Age concepts with a map, if you are talking about the term like "quake map" then that would be a combination of the above aspects.

I was struggling to find an adequate expression here: I meant creating an overall plan/layout for an age that was both interesting for the player and achievable with the available tools. So your first interpretation is probably closest to what I meant.

And I said it was "rare" not "implausible" to find someone who had all the skills

[Whilyam]

But let people start with Reltos (so they don't have to choose immediately), and then just give them up when they get their Nexus book.

Except that's the whole point, choice. You would make that choice when you start in the Cleft. Do you go in the fissure and follow Yeesha's path or do you go into the volcano and follow Anna's path? At the end of each path you would get your flavor of rescue book. Until you did there would be no way to go to an area where you could fall. Players could return to the Cleft/The Shaft to change their books if they decided against the path they had chosen.

Also, while the Nexus is an appealing choice, I avoided it because I'm not aware of an easy way to force people who have just lost their rescue age book to get a new one without linking to the City etc. from Nexus. My idea was to have an Age sealed off except for a place where you get a new rescue book. After getting it, a Nexus machine would open and you would be permitted to leave. Otherwise people would panic link without a book (in the game you do a kind panic link even without a relto book).

Since the books have to be replaced afterwards (as I assume would be the case, as the book was presumably "lost" when it fell and disappeared), and since the logical result of regular linking books being linked through in accordance to the D'ni process of linking is that the book falls down and stays there, there either should be a book on the ground - or there should be something that explains why there is not. There has to be some explanation.

Uru based on logic: Uru has tried to be based as strongly as possible on logic and an appearance of reality. There are no arbitrary "classes" or "leveling up", instead you are a real person - yourself - who is in a "real" place. The Uruverse is connected to the real-world universe (since there are humans, the surface, etc.) and so follows the laws of physics - with some additions. I think that all people will agree with me that the additions do not include the vaporization of books.

Since this is not a solution to a gameplay issue (such as how the closet works instead of just you pulling out clothes or something) or a tech issue (such as how linking books don't show people), but instead an IC logic issue (why in the world do DRC followers use Relto books?), then it should be forming an IC logical answer. In my opinion, a physics problem is more starkly illogical then a personality problem (especially where there are ways to resolve the personality problem that are simpler than adding new pieces to the laws of physics).

Except there aren't explanations for other game mechanisms which are equally strange and which can also be phrased as an "IC logic issue". For example, the only reason the KI machines materialize a KI on your wrist is because it would take too much effort to make an animation of the machine putting it on. Similarly there's no explanation as to how the machine can store potentially thousands of KIs. The thing is, the book vanishing issue is a tech issue. The Relto book is a part of the avatar model which is why it vanishes with you. So the rescue book can't stay on the ground unless you want the avatar hanging around there too (a message pops up which says "We're sorry, IC logic demands you remain in a black void until your book naturally decays in a few years" )

It is possible to view Yeesha's accomplishments as "magic," but I do not see it that way. I see her as an experimenter with brilliant insight, willing to implement Writings without confining herself to the limits set by the Guild.

That is true. "Yeesha Magic" is simply used because it's shorter than "Yeesha is an extremely talented writer able to do improbable things because of an inerrant talent and even greater luck than her mother had in making Ages work even when D'ni rules forbade it". The problem is that Yeesha's talent is used in this case to fix a gameplay issue (i.e. how you don't kill yourself or get trapped). The problem is furthered by the fact that a great deal of IC tension was generated over the use of books and people were asked to choose. The fact that there's really little we CAN choose has been an issue to many. Everyone gets Relto books and the only real choice we have is to not do Yeesha's quest. It's heavy on the Yeesha side and not much on a traditional D'ni side/DRC side. There's no way nor reason to get rid of Yeesha, but I do think an initial choice of who you will "follow" would be very beneficial.

Is there an assumption somewhere that linking books or Relto books are somehow encoded or illegible? Wouldn't a modern researcher, with a growing knowledge of the Art, be able to look through a Relto book and see exactly what Yeesha's innovations are, then copy them?

From what I understand that would be highly improbable. Writing seems to have a random (RAWA uses the word "chaotic") element to it and it would seem that the way you write might influence that or otherwise add another issue to the list. For example, if I copy the Kadish book completely I will always link to a brand new version of Kadish. It's possible but incredibly improbable. Thus I think writing is not really just parts, but how they're constructed. The "Yeeshaish" phrase you copy out may require some normal-looking phrase before it or after it, or it may need ten pages of stuff before it, etc. Figure if the DRC spent all this time down here and had not (to our knowledge) written even linking books to existing destinations, even the idea that WE can write is pushing it, IC, let alone figuring out the intricacies of Yeesha's writing.

Anyway, despite the fun I've had defending the self-destruction option, I like Whilyam's basic notion. I'd boil it down to "The DRC (or equivalent) have figured out how to author Nexus books that let us panic link, but that stay with us instead of being left behind." It's tidy.

Except the point is that the books would not stay with you, but act as normal books. Thus if you didn't trust/like Yeesha's way, you could take the "safe" path shown by the DRC.

I don't think we can use the bahro to save us from death, because the D'ni obviously faced such problems (the empire itself died, and I think there were accidents and all that would be basically like what we'd panic link from that brought death tolls) and did not survive. And there's a bahro civil war going around, if I heard right. That might preoccupy them.

Bahro whisking away those without Reltos would be my second choice. Though I think the rescue Age would be better because it completly departs from the whole Yeesha/Bahro thing and goes with a strict D'ni way of doing it.


Now, a second idea. Some maintainer suits had mini-books in them for panic link purposes too (The Book of D'ni shows this being used to explore an Age whose sun had gone nova). Perhaps those who chose the DRC/D'ni path could get "linking gloves" which would serve as the panic link. The glove, IC, would contain a book and be triggered by the person when they fell by either some biological response (i.e. sweat or heart rate) or the panel would be on the palm and the person would link out by touching it to a piece of exposed or lightly-covered skin. They would be taken to an Age where a KI-like machine would put a new book in their glove and they would be allowed to link to Nexus after that. The book would be so small that it wouldn't be visible/visible enough.

[Gehn, lord of ages]

But let people start with Reltos (so they don't have to choose immediately), and then just give them up when they get their Nexus book.

Except that's the whole point, choice. You would make that choice when you start in the Cleft. Do you go in the fissure and follow Yeesha's path or do you go into the volcano and follow Anna's path? At the end of each path you would get your flavor of rescue book. Until you did there would be no way to go to an area where you could fall. Players could return to the Cleft/The Shaft to change their books if they decided against the path they had chosen.

Also, while the Nexus is an appealing choice, I avoided it because I'm not aware of an easy way to force people who have just lost their rescue age book to get a new one without linking to the City etc. from Nexus. My idea was to have an Age sealed off except for a place where you get a new rescue book. After getting it, a Nexus machine would open and you would be permitted to leave. Otherwise people would panic link without a book (in the game you do a kind panic link even without a relto book).

People would still have a choice, they'd just be allowed to get started and used to the thing before having to make the biggest choice in the game. Choice, but not pressure. I think in the plan I was talking about in the quote, either A) They had transfered the "book follows as you link" section of the Relto book to the Nexus book, so they can't lose the book, or B) There would be a stand in the Nexus itself, and they would automatically grab one.

Except there aren't explanations for other game mechanisms which are equally strange and which can also be phrased as an "IC logic issue". For example, the only reason the KI machines materialize a KI on your wrist is because it would take too much effort to make an animation of the machine putting it on. Similarly there's no explanation as to how the machine can store potentially thousands of KIs. The thing is, the book vanishing issue is a tech issue. The Relto book is a part of the avatar model which is why it vanishes with you. So the rescue book can't stay on the ground unless you want the avatar hanging around there too (a message pops up which says "We're sorry, IC logic demands you remain in a black void until your book naturally decays in a few years" )

Well, in the KI machine case, we can extrapolate from events that "the machine put the KI on my wrist" in whatever manner seems logical, and there is no indication that the machine could not hold as many KI's as I can watch being released from it (especially if it's connected to a bigger store of KI's somewhere). In the book case, the events point toward the book disappearing by some means (since we have to get a replacement, since the book according to IC logic will fall by when linked, etc.), and IC logic does not provide us with some explanation that we can pretend happening (other than a very good cleaning service, some paranoid explosive charge, etc.)

That is true. "Yeesha Magic" is simply used because it's shorter than "Yeesha is an extremely talented writer able to do improbable things because of an inerrant talent and even greater luck than her mother had in making Ages work even when D'ni rules forbade it". The problem is that Yeesha's talent is used in this case to fix a gameplay issue (i.e. how you don't kill yourself or get trapped). The problem is furthered by the fact that a great deal of IC tension was generated over the use of books and people were asked to choose. The fact that there's really little we CAN choose has been an issue to many. Everyone gets Relto books and the only real choice we have is to not do Yeesha's quest. It's heavy on the Yeesha side and not much on a traditional D'ni side/DRC side. There's no way nor reason to get rid of Yeesha, but I do think an initial choice of who you will "follow" would be very beneficial.

What about a choice that could be taken at any time, but is not presented as "the first thing you must do is choose who to follow"? Let people get Relto books first, at least until a quality Descent is made by somebody, and then be able to transfer to a Nexus or whatever book in a neighborhood? The Descent could include a way to get your Nexus book first, something you could also switch to Relto later. Just let beginners get into the flow of the game first.

From what I understand that would be highly improbable. Writing seems to have a random (RAWA uses the word "chaotic") element to it and it would seem that the way you write might influence that or otherwise add another issue to the list. For example, if I copy the Kadish book completely I will always link to a brand new version of Kadish. It's possible but incredibly improbable. Thus I think writing is not really just parts, but how they're constructed. The "Yeeshaish" phrase you copy out may require some normal-looking phrase before it or after it, or it may need ten pages of stuff before it, etc. Figure if the DRC spent all this time down here and had not (to our knowledge) written even linking books to existing destinations, even the idea that WE can write is pushing it, IC, let alone figuring out the intricacies of Yeesha's writing.

Exactly. Think how hard it is to translate a book from a normal language. Now if that language is highly technical in an art form you don't fully understand, and then you have to figure out how it makes a whole world interact...


My favorite ideas so far, listed in amount of dramatic change needed.
1. Keep Relto. However, a DRC workman links through and removes Yeesha propoganda and locks the doors and windows of the hut. Since you only go through Relto for short bits of time (to get another linking book), there is little danger for you (also, it could load faster since it wouldn't need all the outside). If the DRC is really paranoid, they can replace the closet with a life support system just in case (you would have another closet in a 'hood or somewhere) and seal the hut interior. They could basically just make it a self-sufficient pod, but with the useful mechanics of Yeesha-magic/skill.
2. Yeesha wrote the Relto book in sections to keep everything organized (which would be sensible). We identify one section as the "link with you" section, and stick it in a Nexus book. Now the Nexus book works just like a Relto book.
3. "linking glove" - a modified version of a maintainer suit as mentioned in the post right above mine. However, I don't like the need for someone to make a whole new Age for it, and the large scale implementation would be slightly odd (how do they get so many maintainer suits?) although workable.

[Tweek]

Figure if the DRC spent all this time down here and had not (to our knowledge) written even linking books to existing destinations, even the idea that WE can write is pushing it, IC, let alone figuring out the intricacies of Yeesha's writing.

That depends on focus, the DRC's focus was on restoration. Those who have been in the cavern since 02/03 and focused on Age writing instead, it is highly plausible that they succeeded, it did not take Atrus many years to master it, although he had good teachers.

My favorite ideas so far, listed in amount of dramatic change needed.
1. Keep Relto. However, a DRC workman links through and removes Yeesha propoganda and locks the doors and windows of the hut. Since you only go through Relto for short bits of time (to get another linking book), there is little danger for you (also, it could load faster since it wouldn't need all the outside). If the DRC is really paranoid, they can replace the closet with a life support system just in case (you would have another closet in a 'hood or somewhere) and seal the hut interior. They could basically just make it a self-sufficient pod, but with the useful mechanics of Yeesha-magic/skill.
2. Yeesha wrote the Relto book in sections to keep everything organized (which would be sensible). We identify one section as the "link with you" section, and stick it in a Nexus book. Now the Nexus book works just like a Relto book.
3. "linking glove" - a modified version of a maintainer suit as mentioned in the post right above mine. However, I don't like the need for someone to make a whole new Age for it, and the large scale implementation would be slightly odd (how do they get so many maintainer suits?) although workable.

1. Relto could be kept, though the notion that keeps returning that the DRC would do something to it/be against it is nonsense, the conflict between the DRC and Yeesha vanished when the DRC took her journey in 2004. The DRC wouldn't go in and remove stuff (nor could they as they don't own the Age).

2. Doesn't work from an IC perspective, as Whil pointed out it would have taken us a lot to learn the D'ni version of the Art, doing Yeesha's writing style is somewhat far fetched. Not only that it goes against RAWA's guidelines.

3. I like this idea, although Whil's suggestion about it linked to heart rate is not needed IMO, the old Maintainer suits required a push of a button on the back of the heand to trigger a Link, same mechanism could work here.

[75th Trombone]

• Frankly, I'm bored to death with the whole Yeesha/DRC dichotomy.
• Even if Yeesha vs. DRC were a good thing to carry over to open-source Uru, it's not like there's going to be anyone around to actually play the DRC members in any official capacity.
• Even if Yeesha vs. DRC were the easiest thing in the world to implement, it doesn't make sense anymore because Yeesha has been established time and time again as The (or at least A) Good Guy.
• Even if it made sense to consider Yeesha a potential Bad Guy, simply carrying a Relto book — which is incredibly useful and which even anti-Yeeshas would use in a heartbeat for their own personal gain — does not in any real way make you a Yeesha devotee. You can use Relto with the best or the worst of intentions.

So, considering all that, someone tell me why it's worth all the time and effort and banging our heads against the walls to craft and implement a Relto-free Uru experience.

If your big reason is that you want the Descent — and I gather that for at least some of you, it is — then you can still have it (disregarding the massive technical, logistical, and copyright issues that entails). We can, like, put a big door or something at the beginning that requires a KI to open. That way you still have to get your Relto book first. (There are KI devices all through the Myst V Descent, and it's logical that the D'ni would have put something up after Anna showed up to allow only D'ni into the Descent.)

We have way, way, way more pressing fish to fry in the immediate future than completely overhauling the very basic tenets of the game for no real gain whatsoever.

[JWPlatt]

We have way, way, way more pressing fish to fry in the immediate future than completely overhauling the very basic tenets of the game for no real gain whatsoever.

But anyone is free to try if that is their passion.

I encourage everyone to support what others find worthwhile, not just yourselves, and be brave enough to risk having to applaud when it works.

[75th Trombone]

Oh no, now I wasn't trying to quash the talk or deflate anyone's spirits about changes we might make in the future. (Not exactly, anyway.) I was just expressing my opinion that it's not a wise idea to be considering, especially at the moment.

[Whilyam]

Well, in the KI machine case, we can extrapolate from events that "the machine put the KI on my wrist" in whatever manner seems logical

Except that, if we actually watch, the KI magically appears on our wrist. What you say about extrapolating from events is true. I say I use the same extrapolation for the book as well. Just as you say "the machine put the KI on my wrist", we could also say "I've used up my lifeline".

What about a choice that could be taken at any time, but is not presented as "the first thing you must do is choose who to follow"? Let people get Relto books first, at least until a quality Descent is made by somebody, and then be able to transfer to a Nexus or whatever book in a neighborhood? The Descent could include a way to get your Nexus book first, something you could also switch to Relto later. Just let beginners get into the flow of the game first.

There's nothing about this idea which would put pressure on a new person. Obviously, Descent being put into the Cleft is a pre-requisite.

My favorite ideas so far, listed in amount of dramatic change needed.
1. Keep Relto. However, a DRC workman links through and removes Yeesha propoganda and locks the doors and windows of the hut. Since you only go through Relto for short bits of time (to get another linking book), there is little danger for you (also, it could load faster since it wouldn't need all the outside). If the DRC is really paranoid, they can replace the closet with a life support system just in case (you would have another closet in a 'hood or somewhere) and seal the hut interior. They could basically just make it a self-sufficient pod, but with the useful mechanics of Yeesha-magic/skill.

Except that the DRC didn't have objections to there being a hut, etc. They were fearful of the fact that the book violated D'ni writing rules. The point of the D'ni Rescue Age is to provide an alternative to Yeesha which has been lacking. Same with 2.

3. "linking glove" - a modified version of a maintainer suit as mentioned in the post right above mine. However, I don't like the need for someone to make a whole new Age for it, and the large scale implementation would be slightly odd (how do they get so many maintainer suits?) although workable.

The "whole new Age" could simply be a tiny room like the Maintainer's Nexus in Gahreesen (if one can extract that, that could even be the place). You place your glove hand in a machine, it whirs, you get presented a Nexus book, and you're off. As for large scale implementation, we know the D'ni had lots of maintainer suits from the machines in Gahreesen. They either had a vast supply or could manufacture them on the spot.

Figure if the DRC spent all this time down here and had not (to our knowledge) written even linking books to existing destinations, even the idea that WE can write is pushing it, IC, let alone figuring out the intricacies of Yeesha's writing.

That depends on focus, the DRC's focus was on restoration. Those who have been in the cavern since 02/03 and focused on Age writing instead, it is highly plausible that they succeeded, it did not take Atrus many years to master it, although he had good teachers.

True. However, I see more parallels to Gehn's form of learning (finding passages in books he liked) than Atrus'.

3. I like this idea, although Whil's suggestion about it linked to heart rate is not needed IMO, the old Maintainer suits required a push of a button on the back of the heand to trigger a Link, same mechanism could work here.

That would work too. I'd forgotten how the suits worked.

• Frankly, I'm bored to death with the whole Yeesha/DRC dichotomy. -etc.

That's true. The idea that this was a Yeesha vs. DRC idea was a false one I accidentally furthered when I was told to give an explanation as to how the books have come about. I used the DRC in that case because they were the authority figure in the cavern. I should clear this up, the idea of a D'ni Rescue Age is NOT exclusive to the DRC. It is simply another route, an option for those who do not wish to follow Yeesha or wish to use a "traditional D'ni way".

So, considering all that, someone tell me why it's worth all the time and effort and banging our heads against the walls to craft and implement a Relto-free Uru experience.

Not Relto-Free, Relto-Plus. And as to the why, because this game has emphasized choice when little is contained within. I think developing fundamental choices and branching effects of decisions is one of many things which can make this game popular. Keep in mind that the traditional MMO has many "choices" in the form of race, profession, etc. which are not part of Uru and would take much more effort to implement (though I wouldn't mind being able to play as a Bahro).

[Gehn, lord of ages]

Figure if the DRC spent all this time down here and had not (to our knowledge) written even linking books to existing destinations, even the idea that WE can write is pushing it, IC, let alone figuring out the intricacies of Yeesha's writing.

That depends on focus, the DRC's focus was on restoration. Those who have been in the cavern since 02/03 and focused on Age writing instead, it is highly plausible that they succeeded, it did not take Atrus many years to master it, although he had good teachers.

I think the closest analog we would have is Gehn, who claimed to have learned it in 30 years (right?). That could be slightly shortened by the amount of people working on it, though.

1. Relto could be kept, though the notion that keeps returning that the DRC would do something to it/be against it is nonsense, the conflict between the DRC and Yeesha vanished when the DRC took her journey in 2004. The DRC wouldn't go in and remove stuff (nor could they as they don't own the Age).

Except that the DRC didn't have objections to there being a hut, etc. They were fearful of the fact that the book violated D'ni writing rules. The point of the D'ni Rescue Age is to provide an alternative to Yeesha which has been lacking. Same with 2.

I'd be perfectly fine with keeping Relto just as it is. These are just the best ideas I saw for replacing Relto.
The DRC would just be being cautious, and trying to limit the amount of danger possible (since the book is different, and therefore they aren't sure if it is fully safe). They would do this by limiting the time spent in Relto (by locking the doors). They would link into your Relto to do this, after you signed some kind of contract to be a good explorer basically.

We can, like, put a big door or something at the beginning that requires a KI to open. That way you still have to get your Relto book first. (There are KI devices all through the Myst V Descent, and it's logical that the D'ni would have put something up after Anna showed up to allow only D'ni into the Descent.)

I was thinking maybe that you start in a single-player cleft, and the only way to get far into Descent is a multi-player puzzle or thing (such as helping each other over the fence or something). Your door works too. It would be logical for the D'ni to put in something even before Anna showed up, but she came through a different opening, right (not through the volcano)?

Except that, if we actually watch, the KI magically appears on our wrist. What you say about extrapolating from events is true. I say I use the same extrapolation for the book as well. Just as you say "the machine put the KI on my wrist", we could also say "I've used up my lifeline".

Okay, but "I've used up my lifeline" is followed by "the book dropped to the ground". "The book dropped to the ground" is followed by "someone or something has to keep gathering or destroying all these books". My IC explanation itself is creating the problems.

[75th Trombone]

because this game has emphasized choice when little is contained within. I think developing fundamental choices and branching effects of decisions is one of many things which can make this game popular. Keep in mind that the traditional MMO has many "choices" in the form of race, profession, etc. which are not part of Uru and would take much more effort to implement

Big Choices™ have been a staple of most of the Myst endgames, and frankly, they've never been that well done.

The Big Choice in Myst is SIrrus vs. Achenar vs. green book, and that one's okay, but it's pretty easy — Myst gave you lots of reasons to distrust both brothers and no reason at all to believe what they said about the green book.

Myst V, while perhaps under-rated, had an utterly laughable Big Choice. "Should I give it to the girl who everyone says not to give it to, give it to the stuck-up creepy guy, or do the same thing I've been doing over and over the entire game?" Give me a break.

Mysts III and IV had choices, but I don't consider them Big Choices. They weren't about carefully weighing evidence to come to an ultimate moral decision. Myst III's was purely a tactical decision. Myst IV's, while a moral decision, gave you no time to think and then gave away the answer if you tried to take the time.

It's worth noting that Riven, which is definitively and unquestionably the best Myst game,* is the one that never really tried to have a Big Choice. You can choose to end the game leaving part of your task incomplete, but it's not like anyone would ever have a reason (other than being stumped) for doing so.

So while a Big Choice would indeed be Mysty to a certain extent, it's certainly not required, and given Uru's troubled history with implementing such a thing, it's not something we should try to shoehorn in right out of the gate. I believe it's something we should let evolve over time. Different factions of the community will do their own things for a while. Once things have developed, perhaps they will interact and conflict in natural ways. That would be way more satisfying than the DRC vs. Yeesha artifice we've had so far.

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* I understand that it is indeed possible to question the truth of this fact. You'd be incorrect to do so, but it is still possible.