Community Project: The Great Shaft

[Marten]

Easy solution. Save and Load options.

As I said previously, we want the world of Uru to be believable. Being able to save and load one's progress is not realistic, and it definitely puts "magic" in the hands of the player.

What's wrong with giving the player a book that he or she has to leave behind? It has a nice tie-in to Atrus losing his MYST book.

[The stranger]

Nothing wrong with that. But what if you almost finished gahreesen as an autherized explorer, and than the game quitted by it self? you have no clothes. You have to go all over again.

So even though we want a realistic uru, sometimes we have to remember it's a game. If the game was 100% realistic, any explorer who didn't own a relto book and fell off a ledge was dead and couldn't return. I think save and load options are more than needed, even more for auth explorers. So yes, I would like a realistic game. But if we want to make things just less annoying (after all, this is still a game. You are not playing to get annoyed), we need such options, which let us move through the game more easily.

[Marten]

You've completely missed the point.

Here, we (I think I can speak for others in this thread? Other folks, let me know if I'm overstepping)... we are trying to think of ways to improve the game that don't take away any further from its realism, and in some ways, we're trying to correct existing problems that took away from its realism.

Your suggestion is therefore counter to what we're trying to accomplish here. Yes, it is a game; and yes, we will have to make compromises at points. But when we're trying to rethink how Uru works, we should try our hardest not to use "It's a game" as a crutch or an excuse for a limitation unless we've exhausted all other possible ideas to solve the problem.

Bottom line: The moment you said "Easy solution," I knew in my heart that it was the wrong solution.

[DarK]

Nothing wrong with that. But what if you almost finished gahreesen as an authorized explorer, and then the game quit by itself? You have no clothes. You have to go all over again.

So even though we want a realistic uru, sometimes we have to remember it's a game. If the game was 100% realistic, any explorer who didn't own a relto book and fell off a ledge was dead and couldn't return. I think save and load options are more than needed, even more for auth explorers. So yes, I would like a realistic game. But if we want to make things just less annoying (after all, this is still a game. You are not playing to get annoyed), we need such options, which let us move through the game more easily.

I wish I had a save and load option in World of Warcraft, then every time I was dead I could load up the last time I was alive and not have to worry about dying every 10 minutes.

Having a load and save option in a MMO environment really defeats the purpose of the game entirely, the journey cloths where a spin on a load and save option, and were in fact encouraged by them been integrated into puzzles.

Marten, can I ask for you to read through the initial posts by Alahmnat again, and get back to us if there is anything you are unsure about? I've read through your posts and what you are suggesting sounds a lot more complicated and in some cases technically improbable, and for less of a pay off.

One point is that making the cleft public leads to all the puzzles been solved, while your solution to this is to leverage instancing, mine was to alter the puzzles slightly and stop direct access to the main cleft and leverage instancing on that area to make it private.

I think in your case with the instancing it gets pretty messy, it will bring a greater confusion to people, such as why is there no one in this cleft when there was before, I’ve already walked through this bit, why do I need to do it again, why can/can't I head into decent in this instance, certain things look/work different here, where will I end up if I link to place N from this instance?

My solution here does go against cannon with linking inter-age; this could be explained away as “Yeesha Magic” as it is her journey.

An intermediate location off world could be created to bring that back in line with cannon if it absolutely needed to be correct.

For this small hassle we gain usability improvements, such as the user understanding that they are in a space that they couldn’t access before and that they are in their own puzzle space and are free to solve it at their leisure.

I feel if we absolutely follow cannon every time, we end up with a perfect canonical game, that is an absolute pain in the backside to follow and play, this turns people off to the game and they never come back.

Sadly the average Joe is not worried about the fact that they just did something that was not cyan cannon; they are just there to have fun.

So if we wean the game away from cannon at problem areas that can’t be balanced and make it favour usability and enjoyment, people are more likely to play.

I'm not saying we should ignore cannon when it suits us; however when it confuses the user and takes enjoyment away from the game, for a better pay off, usability and enjoyment should be made a priority.

[Marten]

Marten, can I ask for you to read through the initial posts by Alahmnat again, and get back to us if there is anything you are unsure about? I've read through your posts and what you are suggesting sounds a lot more complicated and in some cases technically improbable, and for less of a pay off.

What I don't like about Alahmnat's approach is that one has to go through the (public) Cleft, and down into the Volcano, to get to .... a different version (an instance) of the Cleft. This does not seem sensible to me, and I think it is more likely to cause confusion in players than what I've suggested. If anything, it is Alahmnat's version where, as you said, players may ask "why is there no one in this cleft when there was before, I’ve already walked through this bit, why do I need to do it again, why can/can't I head into decent in this instance, certain things look/work different here."

Alahmnat's Version:
Public Cleft w/o Yeesha's Cloths -> Volcano -> Descent -> Instanced Cleft w/o Descent -> Yeesha's Journey -> Instanced Cleft -> Instanced Rainy Cleft

My Version:
Public Cleft w/ both Descent and Yeesha's Cloths -> Yeesha's Journey -> Instanced Cleft -> Instanced Rainy Cleft

Which is more complicated?

Anyway... I hope people will keep discussing alternatives. I hope an even better idea comes up than mine.

[The stranger]

Okay, no save and load options. But again, what if I finished a complicated age, I'm not carrying a relto book, and somehow I linked to the 'hood?

Will I have to do that all over again?

I understand the game should be realistic, but still, when it's too much realistic it gets annoying, and unlike in our realistic life, one can simply quit the game when he is annoyed.

I can't think of realistic possible solutions... maybe a zip mode of some kind? other than that all solutions will be too weird. Can't think of anything realistic, you will have to go all the way through the age again.

[DarK]

Marten, can I ask for you to read through the initial posts by Alahmnat again, and get back to us if there is anything you are unsure about? I've read through your posts and what you are suggesting sounds a lot more complicated and in some cases technically improbable, and for less of a pay off.

What I don't like about Alahmnat's approach is that one has to go through the (public) Cleft, and down into the Volcano, to get to .... a different version (an instance) of the Cleft. This does not seem sensible to me, and I think it is more likely to cause confusion in players than what I've suggested. If anything, it is Alahmnat's version where, as you said, players may ask "why is there no one in this cleft when there was before, I’ve already walked through this bit, why do I need to do it again, why can/can't I head into decent in this instance, certain things look/work different here."

Alahmnat's Version:
Public Cleft w/o Yeesha's Cloths -> Volcano -> Descent -> Instanced Cleft w/o Descent -> Yeesha's Journey -> Instanced Cleft -> Instanced Rainy Cleft

My Version:
Public Cleft w/ both Descent and Yeesha's Cloths -> Yeesha's Journey -> Instanced Cleft -> Instanced Rainy Cleft

Which is more complicated?

Anyway... I hope people will keep discussing alternatives. I hope an even better idea comes up than mine.

Public Cleft w/o Yeesha's Cloths (no main cleft access) -> Volcano -> Descent -> Instanced main Cleft (no surface access)-> Yeesha's Journey -> Instanced Main Cleft (no surface access) -> Instanced main Rainy Cleft (with slightly altered ending, barho comming to the edge of cleft and screaming)

Public Cleft w/o Yeesha's Cloths (no main cleft access) -> Volcano -> Descent -> D'ni

[GPNMilano]

Saving progress is done through the vault. No matter if you've taken Yeesha's journey or not in the beginning, subsequent journy cloths and puzzles are all done through the vault, where your progress in a puzzle is saved. Not completing Yeesha's journey has no effects on subsequent cloths and puzzles later on in the game. Its part of the python scripts that control puzzles that save your progress in an age, not anything built into the client. So worrying about saving and loading is a moot point. If you're an authorized explorer (EG Non Yeesha route) and you panic link or get a CTD, when you return your progress will remain where it was when you left.

[Alahmnat]

What I don't like about Alahmnat's approach is that one has to go through the (public) Cleft, and down into the Volcano, to get to .... a different version (an instance) of the Cleft. This does not seem sensible to me, and I think it is more likely to cause confusion in players than what I've suggested. If anything, it is Alahmnat's version where, as you said, players may ask "why is there no one in this cleft when there was before, I’ve already walked through this bit, why do I need to do it again, why can/can't I head into decent in this instance, certain things look/work different here."

This is actually why I put the Bahro Stone next to Watson's journal in the Great Shaft. There's already references to Yeesha's Journey in there, so it seemed at least somewhat logical to put a link to the start of that Journey right beside it.

Alahmnat's Version:
Public Cleft w/o Yeesha's Cloths -> Volcano -> Descent -> Instanced Cleft w/o Descent -> Yeesha's Journey -> Instanced Cleft -> Instanced Rainy Cleft

My Version:
Public Cleft w/ both Descent and Yeesha's Cloths -> Yeesha's Journey -> Instanced Cleft -> Instanced Rainy Cleft

Which is more complicated?

Honestly, while your version has a much simpler instancing setup throughout the Journey, I think it throws too many things at new players at once, and requires too many people to be working at odds with each other to achieve their goals, which seems likely to lead to frustration before cooperation.

Consider, right from the get-go, you're presenting players with a choice on which Cleft they want to start in. How do we explain to these players why there are two different Clefts? How do we explain that the "explore alone" option doesn't apply to the entire game (at least without a re-work of the player instancing default behaviors)? Why should players need to make this choice now? I'm probably going to sound like a complete jerk for saying this, but Uru is an MMO; it's high time it stopped pussy-footing around the idea and just did it (and did it well).

Also, consider that players will need to have the windmill running to see any messages stored in the imager in the Cleft. If Descent players need the windmill to be off to get into the Descent, wouldn't that make them seem more like griefers to the newcomers who are just trying to listen to the imager message? Also, players are being presented with another choice, this time with the ability to complete both paths in parallel (to a point). While non-linear gameplay is supposed to be a hallmark of Cyan's games (to a large degree it's a facade, but a well-maintained one), I think giving players that level of free range right away is going to lead to confusion ("Why take Yeesha's path over the Descent? Why take the Descent over Yeesha's path?").

What I tried to do with my version was present players with an open starting zone where they could learn how to play the game with a small number of initial goals: learn the controls (walk, run, turn, interact, chat), get a KI, and then, once the initial gameplay mechanics and interface components have been passed along, give players an easy-to-access choice of whether to continue to D'ni or take Yeesha's Journey as Watson encourages them to. It's a simpler introduction to a complex MMO and a complex story, and it's as balanced between the two paths as I can think to make it without requiring massive amounts of restructuring work in the Cleft, as your version does.

To address the specific concerns you brought up about differences in the Private and Public Clefts (which seem more intelligible than seeing avatars running around touching things you can't see), and players getting confused by them, perhaps an extra passage could be added to the back of Watson's journal (or a note beside it) briefly explaining the Bahro Stone nearby and what, precisely, it does ("I have placed a Stone here which will take you, fellow traveler, to a different 'version' of the Cleft you just descended from. There, you can take Yeesha's Journey, but you will not have access to these tunnels through that path," or something to that effect). That, combined with better information about Linking and instancing on the MOUL website (see the instancing thread for my thoughts there), will hopefully give players a better understanding of the world they've entered than the game and website currently do, and they'll have a better idea of what to expect when they go somewhere using a Book or Stone.

I'd love to get some good, honest playtesting done to further hammer out what actual players would think is optimal (and if I'm wrong, I'd gladly take the lesson and learn from it ), but I don't see that happening any time soon, sadly.

[Gehn, lord of ages]

I haven't read over the whole topic, so this might have been mentioned before.

Why do auth. explorers have to avoid Relto? Simply put, it is hard to replace Uru. On the OOC side, we have to make a whole new set of Ages to be the explorer's home. On the IC side, there suddenly has to be a endlessly repetitive Age without using Yeesha magic. On the in-between side, we have to figure out all kinds of "bahro swooping to save you" or "special maintainer suits for all" storyline backflips to replace panic linking.

Remember EoA? Even Esher, who viewed the tablet and all as "an abomination" used them. The DRC could be the same. Something like "The Age called Relto appears to be relatively safe. The DRC will not guarantee the safety of the explorer who uses a Relto book, but they can, we grudgingly admit, be useful. The DRC does caution against the odd pages that appear in some Ages. These appear to add things inexplicably to the Relto Age, and may be dangerous. The DRC also cautions against cloths, stones, and other items that appear to be related to the mysterious person, Yeesha."

With Relto maintained, there will be a lot more time to focus on the Descent, the Tunnels, the City, the Ages, etc.