Community Project: The Great Shaft

[Marten]

Consider, right from the get-go, you're presenting players with a choice on which Cleft they want to start in. How do we explain to these players why there are two different Clefts? How do we explain that the "explore alone" option doesn't apply to the entire game (at least without a re-work of the player instancing default behaviors)? Why should players need to make this choice now? I'm probably going to sound like a complete jerk for saying this, but Uru is an MMO; it's high time it stopped pussy-footing around the idea and just did it (and did it well).

If only it were that easy! However, the design of permanence in the game - the idea that things stay where a player puts them, and that unless that player invites another into their Age, things will stay as the player left them - is at odds with Uru being an MMO like other MMOs. As warmly as Rand spoke of that, I don't see Cyan letting go of that idea so easily.

Furthermore, Uru should not be attempting to appeal to the same masses that are playing World of Warcraft. Those masses are playing World of Warcraft; that is what they like. While I think we can borrow some good implementation ideas from other MMOs, I would caution against throwing away the things that make Uru different and unique from other games. I've seen a lot of stories from players who came into Uru to play solo, and over time, the community grew on them and they came out of their shells. If we take that opportunity to grow away, if we make Uru into a sink or swim experience from the start, I think we will have made a terrible mistake.

The immediate "Alone or Together" at the start in my example is something that ties into my idea for replacing and simplifying the current instancing model, so that all of the game works in a similar fashion; but, I haven't had time to write down the details yet. Watch for it in another thread soon, I promise.

Also, consider that players will need to have the windmill running to see any messages stored in the imager in the Cleft. If Descent players need the windmill to be off to get into the Descent, wouldn't that make them seem more like griefers to the newcomers who are just trying to listen to the imager message? Also, players are being presented with another choice, this time with the ability to complete both paths in parallel (to a point). While non-linear gameplay is supposed to be a hallmark of Cyan's games (to a large degree it's a facade, but a well-maintained one), I think giving players that level of free range right away is going to lead to confusion ("Why take Yeesha's path over the Descent? Why take the Descent over Yeesha's path?").

I've tried to convince Tweek to join the discussion but he refuses to sign up to "yet another forum." I think he would be in a better position than I to argue for putting this choice at the start of the game; I ask that you try to engage him on the topic.

From the original Prologue, players were always told they'd have a choice, they'd have to take a side... and yet it seemed as if everyone was forced to take Yeesha's path. What I see in your proposal is a swinging of the pendulum to the other extreme, again providing no choice at the beginning but forcing everyone to take the DRC's path. Still, your idea does offer an opportunity to take the other path later... just not perhaps as soon as I'd prefer.

I suppose what I find most objectionable is having to run through Cleft and then have to link to an alternate version of Cleft. I'd rather a stack of Relto books be left by Watson's bed, and not have to run through the desert a second time... maybe only come back to it at the end when the fissure opens on Relto. Maybe we can find a compromise with that? Just take the journey cloths out of Cleft for good, and let that be in the past?

Finally, as for the comment on creating an environment for griefing... I did say that players would need to cooperate. The "together" route leaves players with potentially opposite goals; can they figure out how to work together so they help, rather than hinder, each other? It's possible with my proposal. It creates a conflict that can be resolved if people are considerate of each other and not selfish. I'd love to see that in a trial.

What I tried to do with my version was present players with an open starting zone where they could learn how to play the game with a small number of initial goals: learn the controls (walk, run, turn, interact, chat), get a KI, and then, once the initial gameplay mechanics and interface components have been passed along, give players an easy-to-access choice of whether to continue to D'ni or take Yeesha's Journey as Watson encourages them to. It's a simpler introduction to a complex MMO and a complex story, and it's as balanced between the two paths as I can think to make it without requiring massive amounts of restructuring work in the Cleft, as your version does.

To address the specific concerns you brought up about differences in the Private and Public Clefts (which seem more intelligible than seeing avatars running around touching things you can't see),

(Interrupts) Things of this nature happen in other MMOs all the time. Person with quest Xyzzy can see things that person who doesn't have Xyzzy can't see, or other times, can see but cannot interract with.

...and players getting confused by them, perhaps an extra passage could be added to the back of Watson's journal (or a note beside it) briefly explaining the Bahro Stone nearby and what, precisely, it does ("I have placed a Stone here which will take you, fellow traveler, to a different 'version' of the Cleft you just descended from. There, you can take Yeesha's Journey, but you will not have access to these tunnels through that path," or something to that effect). That, combined with better information about Linking and instancing on the MOUL website (see the instancing thread for my thoughts there), will hopefully give players a better understanding of the world they've entered than the game and website currently do, and they'll have a better idea of what to expect when they go somewhere using a Book or Stone.

I'd love to get some good, honest playtesting done to further hammer out what actual players would think is optimal (and if I'm wrong, I'd gladly take the lesson and learn from it ), but I don't see that happening any time soon, sadly.

If things of this nature were easy, Cyan would have gotten it right the first time and Uru would've been a success and we wouldn't be discussing this today

What do you think of my compromise idea?

[Baron]

I'm with Marten most of the way on this. Even with Yeesha's capabilities hinted at in Watson's journal, I think it's a really bad idea to send new visitors back to an instanced Cleft with different rules that quickly.

On the other hand, while I don't see the harm in letting some of Cyan's puzzles remain in the past, the Cleft imager's initial recording does a lot to set up the Yeesha's Journey plotline. It would be nice to leave that in.

Since the plan already calls for the creation of new locations, could we give a second glance to The Stranger's suggestion that an arrival zone could be added to the very beginning of the game? Maybe the game could start with a linking book on a nondescript background, as in the original Myst. That would link to some kind of off-world Greeter-staffed welcome area with a few Archivist documents lying around.

That way, without repeating Clefts, visitors would have a place to learn to steer, be oriented into the setting, ask questions and choose their path. Links from there would lead to the Cleft (which I'd like to see as sharable multiplayer, but otherwise just as it is in Uru) or the top of the volcano (and the excellent Great Shaft plans described in this thread).

Why do auth. explorers have to avoid Relto? Simply put, it is hard to replace Uru.

It'll definitely cost resources, and maybe we can't have it soon, but I personally would much prefer a Relto-free option. Going forward, I'd like to experience Uru with as much archeology and as little Yeesha hacking as possible.

Perhaps it helps that I don't think the mental gymnastics needed to justify Relto-free panic links are all that painful. All we have to do is agree that the script needed to power a panic link fits on a single scrap of paper, and the Nexus* automatically teleports a fresh folded-up copy into our KIs every time we panic link. Maybe the Maintainers had developed this innovation moments before the Fall.

To be honest, I'd like to be able to customize a personal space, but I'm not that into Yeesha Page type things. For me, finding new locations and reading journals is much more rewarding than gaining the ability to add alien plants to my private island.

* I really think authorized explorers should panic-link to the Nexus rather than their cavern apartments... what if we want to panic link off the Ae'gura bridge?

[Tallonenx]

Why change everything?

Perhaps we could:

Keep Yeesha's journey and the puzzles (original cleft)

add some drc pamphlets/books/imager/greeter whatever, either in the cleft or where zandi once was- saying you can now reach D'ni through the shaft as well, but that it can be dangerous.

----

However, once a player grabs the relto book, they "yeesha link" (breaking the "rules" and force link to a new place) to the top of the volcano...and are allowed to go down from there or simply use their book and link to relto...

??

I'm still debating which of these should be public/private...as much as I like to have a public cleft....but 30 people all in the tree getting their book sounds ridiculous. so maybe a private cleft and a public descent?
??

and on a different note the D'ni housing has been a dream of mine since To Dni. We could have a real neighborhood like J'taeri, Kerath'en, or Vamen.

Good ideas guys.

[Alahmnat]

If only it were that easy! However, the design of permanence in the game - the idea that things stay where a player puts them, and that unless that player invites another into their Age, things will stay as the player left them - is at odds with Uru being an MMO like other MMOs. As warmly as Rand spoke of that, I don't see Cyan letting go of that idea so easily.

Furthermore, Uru should not be attempting to appeal to the same masses that are playing World of Warcraft. Those masses are playing World of Warcraft; that is what they like. While I think we can borrow some good implementation ideas from other MMOs, I would caution against throwing away the things that make Uru different and unique from other games. I've seen a lot of stories from players who came into Uru to play solo, and over time, the community grew on them and they came out of their shells. If we take that opportunity to grow away, if we make Uru into a sink or swim experience from the start, I think we will have made a terrible mistake.

I think you may have taken my comment a bit too broadly... I absolutely do not want to abandon what Uru does well that separates it from other MMOs. The permanence and cohesion of the game world, where everyone sees the same thing as everyone else (barring technical glitches), is one of Uru's greatest strengths. However, Uru does suffer from a fair amount of Cyan's Not Invented Here attitude towards game design, and simple things like the game's primary UI, the control scheme, and its handling of new players are quite distant from even the vaguest concept of an MMO, or what MMOs have concluded through experimentation is optimal. The new player handling is especially brutal to players who have never played a Myst game before, but heard about this Uru thing and thought they'd give it a try. Both Prologue and MOUL lack any sort of initiation period or explanation of what's going on. They dump you pretty much smack in the middle of a massive universe without so much as a how-do-you-do, and then you're on your own. This was fine in Myst, when the game's universe was a few orders of magnitude smaller, but now it's pretty much inexcusable to give brand new players that much of a learning curve, and not provide them with the most useful resource for assistance you can: other players. MOUL starting you in Relto was actually somewhat worse than Prologue's Cleft starting point in some ways, because at least in the Cleft, you were starting on Earth and you had an NPC there to at least nudge you in the right direction... Relto offers no such niceties, and you're still all by yourself.

The immediate "Alone or Together" at the start in my example is something that ties into my idea for replacing and simplifying the current instancing model, so that all of the game works in a similar fashion; but, I haven't had time to write down the details yet. Watch for it in another thread soon, I promise.

From the original Prologue, players were always told they'd have a choice, they'd have to take a side... and yet it seemed as if everyone was forced to take Yeesha's path. What I see in your proposal is a swinging of the pendulum to the other extreme, again providing no choice at the beginning but forcing everyone to take the DRC's path. Still, your idea does offer an opportunity to take the other path later... just not perhaps as soon as I'd prefer.

I suppose what I find most objectionable is having to run through Cleft and then have to link to an alternate version of Cleft. I'd rather a stack of Relto books be left by Watson's bed, and not have to run through the desert a second time... maybe only come back to it at the end when the fissure opens on Relto. Maybe we can find a compromise with that? Just take the journey cloths out of Cleft for good, and let that be in the past?

For starters, I like the compromise you've proposed of having a stack of Relto Books beside Watson's journal... it's more immediate, and skips the overly-long fetch quest you'd have to go through otherwise. However, I also agree with Baron that removing the Journey from the Cleft entirely also removes the introduction to the Journey as well. Perhaps we could move that speech from Yeesha to Relto somehow. Have her give it near the pillars (we'd be reverting back to the 4-pillared Relto by default here) to be triggered automatically the first time the player wanders over there, and just remove the "seven here in the desert" phrase since it no longer applies.

To back up, though, I know the game is (or is supposed to be) all about choice and taking a side, and it only seems logical to offer those choices as soon as humanly possible for the purposes of fairness. However, Uru as a game is not fundamentally designed to support such concurrent choices, and from a game design perspective, giving players too many choices right off the bat is more likely to confuse them than give them a broad sense of freedom. Games, even MMOs, tend to start off by giving players very few (if any) choices for what they can or need to do first, and gradually expand those choices as the player gains confidence and experience with the game and its mechanics. To that end, I think making sure the player is comfortable with Uru trumps the need to offer them the choice of Yeesha or the DRC as soon as they start. Yeesha's path is offered at the earliest possible location beyond the orientation area where it makes sense to put it, and with the immediate provision of a Relto Book (which I like, as it removes one more troublesome Bahro Stone), that choice is rewarded much more quickly.

I've spent a lot of time going over Uru's initial stages while keeping in mind the audio commentary recorded for Portal by the Valve team. Since Portal is more a puzzle game than a shooter (albeit still with more action than Myst games), I figured it would be a good place to get a few insights into the hazy world of game design. What interested me the most is that Valve had to do a great deal of simplification to the early stages of the game, because players could get through those stages without learning the concept they were supposed to, or without learning it correctly, and they would get stuck later in the game because they'd missed some important lesson or visual clue early on that the later puzzles relied on. Valve originally had much more open areas in the beginning of the game, but ultimately, to give players a better experience throughout the game, they had to put the player on a rail for a while at the beginning to make sure they understood what Valve was trying to teach them.

I don't think Uru is directly analogous to Portal (or any other game, for that matter), but I think there's a core lesson to learn from the work that Valve did to make Portal such a playable game, and that's where my proposal is coming from in the end. By putting the player on a rail with a shallow learning curve, it's easier for them to grasp the basic concepts of the game and its universe, after which we can start providing them with options and choices for where to go next. This is why access to Yeesha's path was placed in the Great Shaft rather than the Cleft... the Cleft needs to be devoid of choices (but not necessarily devoid of tasks to perform) while the player gets used to their surroundings and learns some of the basics of the game. Once they advance beyond this first area, the choice of how to proceed to D'ni is provided as early as possible. Given how this choice is presented now, though, I think it may be advisable to remove the quick-link to the end of the Descent from the Nexus. This way, new players are kept on the rail a little longer (we still teach them how to use the Nexus, but simplify the number of initial destinations to better direct them forward), and we can ensure that more of them will encounter the Yeesha option. Given the design of the Cleft and the Descent, I don't think there's going to be a way to give equal weight to both choices at the same time without crowding the orientation area or risking players not having necessary equipment and getting stuck later on.

I think the "alone or together" choice at launch is more likely to confuse players or give them a certain degree of anxiety over the choice... what are they missing by not taking the other path? New players are likely to latch on to there being a tangible and marked difference between the two choices (otherwise, why give it to them?) beyond the population of the area around them, and simply not know what to do, or choose one at random. I think I said this on the MOUL forum, but the number of players we might lose because the starting zone is a public space is very probably less than the number of players we've almost certainly lost in the past because it's private (spend 3 minutes in any Joystiq or Slashdot thread on Uru Live to see what I mean... the complaints about both the Cleft and Relto as the starting zone are pretty prolific). I hate to make it a game of numbers, but I don't think this is something where you can please everyone all of the time... you either focus on one group or the other, and giving players a choice of such perceived importance right away (doesn't matter how important the choice actually is, choices early on are typically assigned far greater and immediate importance by players, especially if they're modal and mutually exclusive) is not, IMHO, a good solution.

Finally, as for the comment on creating an environment for griefing... I did say that players would need to cooperate. The "together" route leaves players with potentially opposite goals; can they figure out how to work together so they help, rather than hinder, each other? It's possible with my proposal. It creates a conflict that can be resolved if people are considerate of each other and not selfish. I'd love to see that in a trial.

While the Myst community is, in general, good at doing bizarre things like queuing up for a new Age release like we're waiting in line for a roller coaster, I think it's a bit too much to ask that we expect this level of cooperation and camaraderie within the first 15 minutes of the game. I think the mutually exclusive requirements are more likely to cause bottlenecks and frustration amongst new players than inspire cooperation. Remember, this is where players should be able to easily get their bearings... imposing mutually exclusive puzzle solutions on these newcomers is going to cause a lot of confusion, especially when these solutions seem like they'd require a lot of trial and error. This sort of puzzle is one that simply doesn't scale well... it might work when there's 5 new players in the Age and everyone is relatively willing to work together, but what happens when there's 50 people in the Age? I remember complaints about (and personally experienced on a couple of occasions) griefing in the Delin and Tsogahl door puzzles, because it was one of the few areas where griefing was even possible in Uru, and the few players who were looking for an opportunity to do so took full advantage of it.

I'm not saying that cooperative puzzle solving is bad. In fact, I'd be interested in seeing it used on occasion in the future. However, I don't think the beginner's area is a good place for it, especially when there is more than one cooperative puzzle, or the cooperation relies exclusively on players putting the needs of other players ahead of their own. These players are going to want to get into the meat and potatoes of the game more than they're going to be willing to hang around helping others get in ahead of them, and that's bound to cause problems.

What I tried to do with my version was present players with an open starting zone where they could learn how to play the game with a small number of initial goals: learn the controls (walk, run, turn, interact, chat), get a KI, and then, once the initial gameplay mechanics and interface components have been passed along, give players an easy-to-access choice of whether to continue to D'ni or take Yeesha's Journey as Watson encourages them to. It's a simpler introduction to a complex MMO and a complex story, and it's as balanced between the two paths as I can think to make it without requiring massive amounts of restructuring work in the Cleft, as your version does.

To address the specific concerns you brought up about differences in the Private and Public Clefts (which seem more intelligible than seeing avatars running around touching things you can't see),

(Interrupts) Things of this nature happen in other MMOs all the time. Person with quest Xyzzy can see things that person who doesn't have Xyzzy can't see, or other times, can see but cannot interract with.

But as you said, everyone always seeing the same world together is one of the hallmarks of Uru's game world .

Anyway, I do like your compromise of putting the Relto Books in the Shaft... what do you think of my addenda (Yeesha's Journey speech in Relto and removing the skip-to-the-end option for the Descent in the initial Nexus list)?

[Marten]

Anyway, I do like your compromise of putting the Relto Books in the Shaft... what do you think of my addenda (Yeesha's Journey speech in Relto and removing the skip-to-the-end option for the Descent in the initial Nexus list)?

I like it.

[walts]

Very well thought out and clearly stated, Alahmnat.

I guess I'm over simplifying things or not understanding them.

I really like the idea of starting in the desert. I never really understood why the change was made to starting in Relto in the first place. It seemed to me at the time that it would only confuse new players....

If the main problem with the "Public" cleft is just the windmill, why not put it on a timer? IIRC the mechanism of attributing Journey Cloths to an individual player already exists (for visitors in the 4 original ages) so that should not be a problem. The bucket hoist is not a problem - just leave it wherever the last player put it. Then there could be a hole in the fence for people to find the tunnels, and Zandi's speech could be modified accordingly. As I've said before, when I first encountered the cleft in the 2003 version, despite Zandi's comments, I STILL spent a lot of time trying to get through that fence. (I had read BOA.) Anyway, the desert experience is a good place for the new player to gain familiarity with the game.

For those players who take the Yeesha route, once they re-gain access to the cleft, they could go through the tunnels.

For those who take the tunnels, a KI dispenser could be placed in one of the early eder tomahn. Panic Linking when necessary could be a function of the KI and could link the player back to the latest "strategic" spot they visited, ultimately ending at Nexus once they discover it, in a similar manner to the mechanism that takes you back to the lst journey cloth touched. Yeesha and her quest could be introduced in Ae'gura or Bevin.

Maybe I'm oversimplifying. I readily admit that I don't have anywhere near the detailed knowledge of the game's internals as you folks do. I'm just trying to think as a new player approaching the game.

One last question/observation - is the intent to keep Yessh/DRC disciples forever separate, of just for the early stages of play? Put another way, would DRC devoteed be forever banned from the original 4 ages?

Walt

[Mac_Fife]

One last question/observation - is the intent to keep Yessh/DRC disciples forever separate, of just for the early stages of play? Put another way, would DRC devoteed be forever banned from the original 4 ages?

Would that make any sense, since we know that some of the DRC have already taken Yeesha's Journey?

[Baron]

Now I'm feeling very conflicted about the ideas here.

I'm convinced that the new player experience has to be extremely simple and inviting. The proposals here might be entertaining for puzzle aficionados who were too impatient for Uru's original pace, but I don't think they're simple enough not to scare off people who might enjoy Uru just for the stories, the poetry, the architecture, the mini-games and the socializing.

What are we hoping to orient new players into, once they know how to steer, chat and click?

The discussion seems to be heading toward ways to give the new player panic link and book collection capabilities without forcing them to commit to Yeesha or the authorized path. That does seem wise.

But then we've got them on rails, and it worries me.

It's great if we can agree that the game's starting point, whatever that turns out to be, will be public. That fixes Uru's original boredom-on-arrival problem. However, for socially-oriented players, fans of mini-games, and so on, I'd suggest that the next place they go should be a place that they find enjoyable, not a puzzling or exploration tutorial (even if it's a multiplayer tutorial). They're liable to get partway down the tunnel, then quit and uninstall.

(And of course, there's the lack of IC logic. If the DRC have the capability of sending new visitors offworld and then into the Cavern inside of a minute, what would be their reason for asking people to climb down?)

Bottom line: The Great Shaft is a sacred site that Explorers should want to see. I really like the design concepts. But could we let them tour it later, as opposed to upon their arrival in Uru?

[walts]

One last question/observation - is the intent to keep Yessh/DRC disciples forever separate, of just for the early stages of play? Put another way, would DRC devoteed be forever banned from the original 4 ages?

Would that make any sense, since we know that some of the DRC have already taken Yeesha's Journey?

I was thinking back to the early days of the first beta.... Cyan was floating around the idea that if you wore a Yeesha shirt, there were areas of the cavern/game that you could see, and that the DRC people could not. The converse was also to be true. It seemed at the time that when you made a choice, you would forever be banned from the "other" locations. AFAIK that never got very far, but I don't know if it was a design decision ot a programming/cost one.

Remember, in Myst and Riven, you always had the option of going back and playing the "other" alternative.

It's great if we can agree that the game's starting point, whatever that turns out to be, will be public. That fixes Uru's original boredom-on-arrival problem. However, for socially-oriented players, fans of mini-games, and so on, I'd suggest that the next place they go should be a place that they find enjoyable, not a puzzling or exploration tutorial (even if it's a multiplayer tutorial). They're liable to get partway down the tunnel, then quit and uninstall.

Good point. I remember with my second or third attempt to enjoy Second Life, I got trapped in a training area and could not go on. The IC "Helper" was more interested in flirting with the girls than in helping me. I uninstalled the game for the last time.

Bottom line: The Great Shaft is a sacred site that Explorers should want to see. I really like the design concepts. But could we let them tour it later, as opposed to upon their arrival in Uru?

That sounds like an excellent solution. We could still let them discover the volcano end of the tunnel but have it blocked by a rock slide. Then they could find their way into the shaft as they do now, but have it lead to a complete shaft, not just one partial level.

I still like the original design of Cleft-Relto-Bevin-Gahreeshen-Nexus to be able to reach the city proper. Players still have the option of exploring the 4 ages alone but are not obliged to.

Walt

[walts]

I just ran into this posting on Slashdot that has some interesting comments on the complexity of a player's first impression of a geme.
http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?si ... 03/0534216

Walt