User "approval" of proposals/suggestions

Community, Project, and Forum Suggestions

Moderator: OpenUru.org Moderators

User avatar
Mac_Fife
Member
Posts: 1239
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 12:38 am
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Re: User "approval" of proposals/suggestions

Post by Mac_Fife »

I'm not claiming that we should do things serially: I was simply using resource limitation (a real issue) as a reason why you might be seeking a concensus on something. It was just an illustration and I chose the question and answer options quite arbitrarily by dipping into some of the threads already here.

Ideally, I'd expect there to be several groups each working relatively independantly on projects at one time.
Mac_Fife
OpenUru.org wiki wrangler
User avatar
JWPlatt
Member
Posts: 1137
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 7:32 pm
Location: Everywhere, all at once

Re: User "approval" of proposals/suggestions

Post by JWPlatt »

Mac_Fife wrote:there has to be a point where you draw a line under debate and start taking action, else nothing will be done. ... Someone may come up with another good idea, but it'll need fleshed out and developed, so you have to be able to set it aside while you work on something you've already thought through and are in a position to deliver.
Yes, that. To this goal, OpenURU.org is not just another forum. Have I mentioned that? ;)

Sometimes a good designer is worth ten thousand polls. How many of us have ever chastised governance by poll? Artistic integrity or brilliance sometimes precludes listening to a lesser vision. Wisdom is knowing when to listen.
Perfect speed is being there.
User avatar
Nalates
Member
Posts: 437
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:50 pm

Re: User "approval" of proposals/suggestions

Post by Nalates »

I agree with JWP. The designer has to decide what they want to create. Direction by committee is almost always mediocre at best. How well they read the audience and understand the nature of what made Uru popular will determine their success.

I believe polls can help suggest directions. But, the results will be from such a small group of people I don’t know they will be of value. Does one want to appeal only to core Uru fans or should a larger gaming populous be considered? I think the later.

If the later idea of wider appeal is important then what are the features of popular games that people like? What is it about the popular games that hold people and keep them playing? Here I am not asking about the surface level nature of those concepts but a deeper meta-model of the games. For instance, in FPShooters there is the ‘shooting’, strategy, competition and more. On the deeper level shooting can be seen as a short term goal and completion task with a reward. Short term tasks may be short simple puzzles or a jump to a ledge or seeing/finding something obscure or hidden, anything that gives a sense of accomplishment, excitement or bragging rights. Strategy can be seen as a puzzle solving in a competitive situation. Something the wall climb could evolve into. Competition can cover task completion times (races – first one cracking a puzzle – etc.) and players competing with each other or the environment.

There is a huge aspect of MMO’s where people are involved in learning and helping others. I think exemplified by the Greeters. But those same types of people exist in every MMO I’ve played. I think this is popular for a number of widely different reasons ranging from narcissistic to altruistic.

The biggest and hardest aspects of what should change and guide development are the hardest to define, fun being top IMO. Popular games are fun. Excitement, exploration and avoiding boredom are key and that varies from person to person.

Uru exists in a time that has changed. People used to make up things to do in Uru once all the puzzles were solved. There was little else to do then. But will today’s people play in Jalek making up games when there is so much to choose from in virtual worlds?

I think these are all questions that will be difficult to answer and even harder for teams to come to consensus about. In this light how one starts the game seems trivial. The poll will tell us what existing fans think. How will we learn what new players want? Polls of the existing fan base won’t tell us.

So, the lead individual/developer just may have to make a call and go for it. JWP has it about as bottom line as it gets… how well has the builder/designer listened, understood and dreamt… and in the end it is up to the dreamer that builds a shard.

So, what is it one really hopes to learn from a new poll or set of queries? And who is it we really should be asking?
Nalates
GoW, GoMa and GoA apprentice - Guildmaster GoC - SL = Nalates Urriah
realXCV
Member
Posts: 257
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 2:07 am
Contact:

Re: User "approval" of proposals/suggestions

Post by realXCV »

The thing is that the problem is not only about what should be done but also which should be done. How do you expect to have many players in a shard if each player creates his own shard with his own customizations?

The results of the polls are not a final decision. Anyone is free to follow them or not. Designers of new ages don't need to ask the players to design their ages. The questions are about changes which affect the way the game is played or modify existing content.

Even if the designer creates the best shard one could imagine, it doesn't mean that it's the one on which players will choose to play.
User avatar
Mac_Fife
Member
Posts: 1239
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 12:38 am
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Re: User "approval" of proposals/suggestions

Post by Mac_Fife »

Nalates wrote:Does one want to appeal only to core Uru fans or should a larger gaming populous be considered? I think the later.
...
The poll will tell us what existing fans think. How will we learn what new players want? Polls of the existing fan base won’t tell us.
Hmm, interesting thought, I agree any kind of research within the existing Uru community will be coloured by past involvement with Uru and the Myst games. Nalates' comments indirectly raise the point of how important it is to sustain and grow the user base. But that then leads to some other questions:
Where will these new players come from? What attracted the existing players come to Uru? Would changes that make Uru more appealing to those who currently play other games actually end up driving away some of the "traditionalists"? I know that some of the things that are "attractions" in some games, like earning points to trade for upgrades, are felt by some to go against the ethos of the original Myst/Uru concept. OK, the current user base probably consists of an unusually high percentage of more mature players compared to many other games (of any form), so I guess we're talking about attracting the younger player, which is probably necessary to ensure that the game thrives. I don't know the answer. Maybe we should run a survey on it :lol:.

Another thing we have to remember is that there will not be a single shard, a single "game" under Open Source. People will be able to create shards to cater for whatever kind of user base they wish to have and modify the game accordingly (within some as yet undefined limits, I expect), so I expect there will be places for those who want things exactly as they were at the end of MOUL and places for those who want to go Bahro blasting with a BFG9000 :shock:.
realXCV wrote:The results of the polls are not a final decision. Anyone is free to follow them or not. Designers of new ages don't need to ask the players to design their ages. The questions are about changes which affect the way the game is played or modify existing content.
Yes, as I said polls are only a form of advice. But setting aside the issue of polls or surveys as such for now, we know that there is a considerable amount of debate on possible changes, updates, and the like already existing around the various Uru forums, blogs, etc. There may be some valuable stuff in amongst it all, but it takes time to read through, it is often interspersed with frequent digressions or uninformed views: This may be going way too far, but the thought occurred to me that maybe there's some scope to collect opinion from that mass of on-line text, if we had a volunteer group to do the donkey work and distill out recommendations. I hesitate to suggest a "Guild of Market Researchers" :roll:, but there must be a good number of people who'd like to help with Open Source Uru in some way but recognise they don't have the technical or creative skills to contribute in a "conventional" manner.
Mac_Fife
OpenUru.org wiki wrangler
User avatar
Nalates
Member
Posts: 437
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:50 pm

Re: User "approval" of proposals/suggestions

Post by Nalates »

Here is an interview with the deveopers of All Points Bulletin (APB) showing the aspects they feel are important in game play.

As to how we capture new players... basic internet marketing. Low cost social network promotions run by the fans only require time and effort.

What was it that got players into Myst? A new game concept and buzz. The buzz was based on the excitement of the big step up in computer graphics. The enjoyment of the game added word of mouth advertising and earned it enduring fans. Buzz it what brought people in. After Myst there were declining sales. More and more the promoters seemed to understand less about how to sell the Myst games. Both Ubi and GT missed the point with Uru.
The thing is that the problem is not only about what should be done but also which should be done. How do you expect to have many players in a shard if each player creates his own shard with his own customizations?
I don't see the difference between what and which... What opening should we use? ... Which opening should we use? ... My point is a poll of fans just tells us what the fans want. People are notorious for wanting to avoid change, especially the older fans. The poll on MOUL revealed about 2/3's of fans felt we need new players for Uru to survive and be fun to play. I think that is obvious for any game.

While some may want a poll to help decide what to do... the result of a fan poll will not guarantee that changes conforming to poll results are going to work. Only the 50 or 100 that vote for an item will 'probably' be happy and some of those will not have had the same thing in mind when they voted as what the actual change is so, the 'happy' number is even smaller. No matter what is known designers are going to want to try their ideas. That will split up the fans. I see the many ideas as a good thing and the splits the price to find out what really works.

I'm not against running a poll or even several. But the point of a poll, the effort to be put into it and the 'real' value of the results should be clear and balanced. Otherwise the time can be better spent.
Nalates
GoW, GoMa and GoA apprentice - Guildmaster GoC - SL = Nalates Urriah
User avatar
T_S_Kimball
Member
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 2:05 am
Location: www.mysterium.net
Contact:

Re: User "approval" of proposals/suggestions

Post by T_S_Kimball »

Mac_Fife wrote: Another thing we have to remember is that there will not be a single shard, a single "game" under Open Source. People will be able to create shards to cater for whatever kind of user base they wish to have and modify the game accordingly (within some as yet undefined limits, I expect), so I expect there will be places for those who want things exactly as they were at the end of MOUL and places for those who want to go Bahro blasting with a BFG9000 :shock:.
Hmm. I thought that only Plasma (the game engine) is being open-sourced, not the original Age content itself (though Cyan will host that for download).

--TSK
Timothy S. Kimball - www.sungak.net
SL - Alan Kiesler (retired) || Eve Online - Alain Kinsella
User avatar
Mac_Fife
Member
Posts: 1239
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 12:38 am
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Re: User "approval" of proposals/suggestions

Post by Mac_Fife »

I believe you're pretty much right in what you say, but engine modifications would be enough to make one Uru different from another. And even within those constraints there's nothing to stop someone creating a whole set of new ages to support their own ideals, on top of which there will no doubt be someone who won't "play by the rules" of the licensing: Cyan have already noted that they expect to see "rogue servers".
Mac_Fife
OpenUru.org wiki wrangler
User avatar
Nalates
Member
Posts: 437
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:50 pm

Re: User "approval" of proposals/suggestions

Post by Nalates »

There was a comment that some parts of the 'content' would be open to fan change. We all guess as to which parts.

I think the Cleft, Nexus and hoods are prime candidates to be in the part fans can change.

From the threads here it is obvious several would like to change the Cleft for a better game start. If we are prevented from changing the Cleft, will we be able to replace it? Will fans be allowed to build a 'replacement' that looks similar? We don't know, afaik.

However even if we are prevented from changing or replacing the Cleft the idea of placing a multi-player age just outside the gate is probably going to be possible. One enters single or multi player mode and enters the Cleft age or finds a storm drain and walks through to where it intercepts the shaft... or some other creative idea. So, changing the Cleft is not a deal breaker.

Changing the engine to allow use of BFG9000 does not really change an age/content... Adding better hair or clothes does not really change an age... There could be significant changes that would not change Cyan 'content'.

If we could get the license out of Cyan while we wait for whoever to fix the last of the source code, we could be planning and may be building.
Nalates
GoW, GoMa and GoA apprentice - Guildmaster GoC - SL = Nalates Urriah
User avatar
Mac_Fife
Member
Posts: 1239
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 12:38 am
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Re: User "approval" of proposals/suggestions

Post by Mac_Fife »

We're going a bit OT, but...
Nalates wrote:If we are prevented from changing the Cleft, will we be able to replace it? Will fans be allowed to build a 'replacement' that looks similar? We don't know, afaik.
No-one could stop you building something equivalent although you might have problems if claim it is "The Cleft". But it's also been commented that Cyan creative assets used within ages will have restricted availability for fan use, so what you end up with may not look very similar. But I think you're right that the Cleft, Nexus, 'hoods will be candidates for change. Cyan may be more protective of the "puzzle ages", since they represent Cyan's "art".
Nalates wrote:Changing the engine to allow use of BFG9000 does not really change an age/content... Adding better hair or clothes does not really change an age... There could be significant changes that would not change Cyan 'content'.
Agreed. You can make substantial changes to the gameplay, the "purpose" within the game, some elements of appearance, etc., without touching the environment.
Nalates wrote:If we could get the license out of Cyan while we wait for whoever to fix the last of the source code, we could be planning and may be building.
Indeed. It doesn't sound like it should be too hard to do that, does it, if they're so close on the code side?
Mac_Fife
OpenUru.org wiki wrangler
Post Reply

Return to “Suggestions”