User "approval" of proposals/suggestions

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realXCV
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Re: User "approval" of proposals/suggestions

Post by realXCV » Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:49 pm

If there are too much differences between each ones, It won't be different shards, it will be different games.

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Re: User "approval" of proposals/suggestions

Post by The stranger » Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:54 pm

That's good too :D .

I mean, if people want that, good. I'll be glad to see what they come up with. On the other hand, I hope there will be at least one regular server.

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Re: User "approval" of proposals/suggestions

Post by realXCV » Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:58 pm

Which one? Extreme cases can be excluded but what about the others if the are all differents.

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Re: User "approval" of proposals/suggestions

Post by The stranger » Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:47 am

If Cyan Worlds could indeed let us mess up with the canon and everything (and I hope they will, to *some* people), they should find some way to keep the regular canon servers out there. Once this is done, knowing what's in each server shouldn't be a problem: a small CANON or NOT CANON tag near the server's name.

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Re: User "approval" of proposals/suggestions

Post by realXCV » Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:44 pm

Cyan already said that there will be rogue servers created.

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Re: User "approval" of proposals/suggestions

Post by Nalates » Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:42 pm

Mac_Fife is right. Getting even the easiest questions worded well is nearly impossible as people seem to over think them and post reasons for not being able to answer the questions. Also the one answer per poll idea in forums is extremely limiting. While comments are spread through the thread, one did at least get them. Reading through and picking out ideas and summarizing them at the close of the poll is not that difficult.

Joining another forum is a show stopper so use of MOUL with the largest subscriber base is about the only site where one could get sizable participation. Even then there are only 200-300 active fans. Is all the effort worth the results?

Mac is right that good polls with good response are complex. So, is the information from 200 or so people worth that much effort or only worth a not so good but easy to do poll?

I am always surprised to see people fear new ideas and oppose open discussion. Avoiding people’s responses and limiting how people can respond to suit a poll author's needs seems fairly unenlightened. One never knows where a great idea will come from. While it is easy for people to get sucked into an argument does not one really have to ask who's problem that is? It is no reason to avoid a forum poll.

I tend to go along with Lehm to a point. There may not be a real need to find out what the majority of fans like. His point that shard operators are going to do what they want in spite of any poll is true. Yet, Gehn's point on finding strongly disliked options and avoiding wasted time is valid. Whoever decides on running the poll gets to make this call.

I think people on this forum are representative of core fans. What you like about Uru is reasonably consistent across the fan base. While any idea one might express may draw a hot response from a dozen or so fans (0.09% of base) one cannot take those objections very seriously. Just because they are the only ones posting does not mean one listens to them.

Gehn describes a good effort at trying to figure out what people are saying in a discussion thread. I agree the amount of work needed to do it justice and be accurate is considerable. But I'm not at all sure that much effort is needed. For instance, I like the idea of 'better hair' for AV's. Threads about that can get quite long and have succinct opinions about the hair topic like , 'SL sucks', lots of fog and unrelated ideas and thought. One just filters it out and skips it. While you can get an idea that nearly every female players wants better hair and male players generally don't care one never gets the idea of 'better hair' defined. So, at best one only has a vague sense of what people are writing about. The nature of these threads tells me a Gehn approach to analyzing thread discussion for a precise result is probably a waste of time for this need. Take the easy to see overall impression and let it go. Don't over geek it as I tend to when going numeric.

Also, over simplification is going to be misleading. Do you want to keep or lose Relto? Ask most and the answer is keep it. Read through some of the concepts for changed play and my answer changes to, 'depends'. If I have a choice of Relto or a house in a hood, OK loose Relto. So, the opinion needed here is on complex issues. Frankly, only the people here and a few at GoW and GoMa are even qualified to vote on the issues. The rest of us don't really understand the issues and related programming challenges.

In the political world there is a thing called a Delphi Poll. Questionnaires are sent to the best people on a subject/issue. The answers are compiled and then the results are sent back to the same people and the list of names of those participating and supplying ideas (not how they sided nor whose ideas are who's). They are asked to respond to the poll once more. Results are amazingly accurate and consensus is apparent.
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Re: User "approval" of proposals/suggestions

Post by Gehn, lord of ages » Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:34 pm

Nalates wrote:Gehn describes a good effort at trying to figure out what people are saying in a discussion thread. I agree the amount of work needed to do it justice and be accurate is considerable. But I'm not at all sure that much effort is needed. For instance, I like the idea of 'better hair' for AV's. Threads about that can get quite long and have succinct opinions about the hair topic like , 'SL sucks', lots of fog and unrelated ideas and thought. One just filters it out and skips it. While you can get an idea that nearly every female players wants better hair and male players generally don't care one never gets the idea of 'better hair' defined. So, at best one only has a vague sense of what people are writing about. The nature of these threads tells me a Gehn approach to analyzing thread discussion for a precise result is probably a waste of time for this need. Take the easy to see overall impression and let it go. Don't over geek it as I tend to when going numeric.
The thing is, we already have tons of forums and threads that people can use to get these overall impressions, and to present unique ideas. However, there's quite a lot of them, with lots of back and forth arguing and people changing their thoughts. Also, people tend to respond to specific ideas (and it's not always clear which ones) and make vague generalizations that cause basically the same over simplification (that you mention in the next paragraph). I've also noticed that people don't tend to show their support for other people's plans that much - rather, they generally reaffirm the general reasoning behind them or make their own plan (which is basically the same, but with a minor twist or a connection to their favored idea in another subject). This is good in a discussion and brainstorming, but makes it hard to find consensus even when it exists. If we figure out the ideas that get brainstormed and discussed, and then have a clear way to show support for each plan, I think it might make it clearer and simpler.
In the political world there is a thing called a Delphi Poll. Questionnaires are sent to the best people on a subject/issue. The answers are compiled and then the results are sent back to the same people and the list of names of those participating and supplying ideas (not how they sided nor whose ideas are who's). They are asked to respond to the poll once more. Results are amazingly accurate and consensus is apparent.
That's very interesting, and might be somewhat of what we're looking for.
My posts represent the views of me, Gehn, lord of ages, and not any companies or groups which I don't belong to. :D

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Re: User "approval" of proposals/suggestions

Post by realXCV » Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:00 pm

If thoses who create shards are the only one who choose what will be in their shard, no poll or survey is required at all. They just have to use their own ideas or to look at suggestions here or on the MOUL forums. A poll is only really needed for the main shard on which new shards will be based (before being customized).
Nalates wrote:In the political world there is a thing called a Delphi Poll.
I prefer a Delphi app. :ugeek:

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Re: User "approval" of proposals/suggestions

Post by Mac_Fife » Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:57 am

Nalates wrote:I am always surprised to see people fear new ideas and oppose open discussion. Avoiding people’s responses and limiting how people can respond to suit a poll author's needs seems fairly unenlightened. One never knows where a great idea will come from. While it is easy for people to get sucked into an argument does not one really have to ask who's problem that is? It is no reason to avoid a forum poll.
I don't think anyone (leastways, not on this forum) fear new ideas or oppose open discussion, but I do think that people will feel a bit depressed at re-treading old ground. That would be the likely outcome of initiating a poll on e.g. the MOUL forums when the main discussion has taken place here.

Gehn brought up the idea of using a poll that addressed several propositions in one go. I think that may well be a pragmatic way to go, but it's one that tends to mitigate against the use of the more simplistic forum polls. It's also crucial in any form of poll that you phrase the questions in a neutral way, without bias, so that people are genuinely free to respond as they think. I've seen numerous "professional" surveys that fail on that count.

However, at the end of the day, the result of a poll or survey is only "advice"; no-one is bound by the result. I think the objective was to get a flavour of what was popular and what was not before investing serious development time on the project.
Lehm wrote:Now here comes the great part, people will gravitate towards the ones that work best.
Undoubtedly that will happen in any case. Shards will probably develop that will tend to attract certain types of player and repel some other types ("repel" may be too strong a word, but I haven't had my coffee yet). Smallish shards will likely know what their users will like or not like. Bigger shards, and I think everyone has in mind a "core" or "main path" shard, are where there may be more value in polling opinion. New ages that are unpopular are no big deal; players just won't go to them. But changes to existing content or UI elements are more likely to create friction, so need to be sounded out.

I know it sounds like I'm rejecting new ideas here, but there has to be a point where you draw a line under debate and start taking action, else nothing will be done. What I think we were originally talking about here is along the lines of "We've have some fully worked out proposals for some changes {see these links}, but we can only work on one of these at a time. How important do you consider each of these: a) Allow new games to begin at a multi-player location, b) Revisions to the KI for personal messaging, c) Fixing the 'hood/Bevin issue or d) Reducing in-game "lag" effects?". Someone may come up with another good idea, but it'll need fleshed out and developed, so you have to be able to set it aside while you work on something you've already thought through and are in a position to deliver.
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Re: User "approval" of proposals/suggestions

Post by realXCV » Fri Jun 26, 2009 11:57 am

Mac_Fife wrote:What I think we were originally talking about here is along the lines of "We've have some fully worked out proposals for some changes {see these links}, but we can only work on one of these at a time. How important do you consider each of these: a) Allow new games to begin at a multi-player location, b) Revisions to the KI for personal messaging, c) Fixing the 'hood/Bevin issue or d) Reducing in-game "lag" effects?". Someone may come up with another good idea, but it'll need fleshed out and developed, so you have to be able to set it aside while you work on something you've already thought through and are in a position to deliver.
Development of proposals shouldn't happen one at a time. Some questions should be more in the line of choosing a beginning of the game, an instancing system, a replacement (or not) of the Relto, hood or bevin. Theses developments need to be done as soon as possible as they have a large influence on the gameplay.

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