New Guild Structure: Balance and Cooperation under Cyan

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Jamey
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New Guild Structure: Balance and Cooperation under Cyan

Post by Jamey »

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With the way many guilds are right now, I feel there are a lot of grey areas in terms of the guilds working together and doing things for each other. I feel we need to come up with a proposal to Cyan concerning quite a few issues. One example is how each guild works with each other, and has influence on one-another.

I feel like we need a structure like the image above: Balance. We need to come up with a structure that stays true to Cyan Worlds, and the same time, encourages interaction and cooperation between guilds, while unlocking their full potential.

Please discuss. :) I would like to hear some points on how the various guilds can work with each other.
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Re: New Guild Structure: Balance and Cooperation under Cyan

Post by JWPlatt »

For that to work, Jamey, Cyan will need to empower and be active in their management. You'll have to measure your ideals against the likelyhood of that. Your post here, however, is on a domain that possibly will be one of a great many open source efforts. The point being that your chart may need to zoom out by orders of magnitude to include all activity in the world of Uru, and thereby Plasma, open source. IC organizations, given official story status, still only represent Uru, per se, not Plasma. Open source means anyone - not just Uru Guilds - can do as they wish within the licenses.
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Re: New Guild Structure: Balance and Cooperation under Cyan

Post by Nalates »

There is also the problem of whether you are trying to organize the IC guilds or the OOC guilds. See The Guilds of Myst-Uru

You already know some of the personalities and problems involved in the OOC guilds. In general, organizing OOC guilds is like herding cats, difficult to impossible.

Like JWP, I doubt we can count on Cyan to do much. Also, they really have no way to enforce their ideas.

I don't know if you were in SL when Jeff had guilds for the Eder D'Uru. They seemed to work well. There is also the Devokan project, now in OSGrid. Dot likes thinking of much of what she does for distributing story and bringing people together as part of the GoMa effort. So, in one way of thinking she is writing (building) the age, testing, living in, RP'ing in, providing messenger services, art work, and all the other things the guilds do. There are a few people that work with her and help her as we can. But, I am unsure who considers their self part of which guild.

Consider that the Devokan organization is from the bottom up, not the top down. In politics think of the politicians trying to impose ideas from the top down verses the tea parties being groups of self organizing people working from the bottom up, which is how I think it is supposed to be. Cooperative independence is why things work. If Dot wants to do something I'm not into she can do her thing and I can do something else. Later she may join me in something or I may join in her next project. If either of us has a problem we are likely to help the other out. We can organize that much more efficiently among our selves than any guild could organize it.

Nadnerb pointed out what I wrote about in a long winded way in The Guilds of Myst-Uru. Rather than spending time changing things, find what you want to do, do it well and others will join in.

People tend to forget how America developed. Many cannot understand how freedom from a centralized organization attempting to control everything has crippled almost every nation in history. The 1918-1922 post war recession was deep, its hard to get unemployment numbers prior to 1920. President Harding declared it was not the government's problem to fix the recession. Elected in 1920 the hands off approach lead to the roaring 20's and 4.8% unemployment. By the late 20's we had a bubble going. When it broke Hoover had just came into office. He tried to hold to Harding and Coolidge's ideas and leave things alone. Hoover blamed for the depression lost to Roosevelt, who took over and tried to fix it. The government stepped in and the depression lasted until WWII. In the 20's the people fixed things on their own. In the 30's and the 40's the government tried to fix it and unemployment remained at 20 to 25%. Organized control... by lots of small groups and individual choice seems to work far better than large centralized efforts. I think the same is true for the guilds.
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Re: New Guild Structure: Balance and Cooperation under Cyan

Post by Mac_Fife »

It's just my own personal opinion, and I don't mean to insult anyone who's a member of a guild by this, but the relevance of some guilds has to questionable nowadays.

A number of the guilds that Cyan actively promoted were, at least in part, a means to delegate some responsibility for the preparation and oversight of Fan Created Content, initially within GameTap MO:UL and later under the MORE model. Cyan were in effect making the use of these guilds obligatory through the way that they planned to release tools and accept content. If Cyan decide to accept fan created content for MOULagain, and that is by no means certain as it still requires an appreciable amount of effort from Cyan to do that, then that scheme may well still apply to some extent.

But, with Open Source, there is no obligation for any content creator, developer or shard operator to work with any guild or even to acknowledge their existence. Of course, equally, they can embrace the guilds if they so wish: It'll be a free choice.

I never felt comfortable with the whole modern day guilds things for a number of reasons:
  • (IC) Why does anyone think that recreating a plutocracy from history fits in with the general storyline of contemporary exploration?
  • (OOC) The guilds scheme probably gives new players yet another layer of wrapping that they need to unpick in order to understand what's going on.
  • (OOC) I didn't like the idea that I needed to be a member of "the right clubs" in order to contribute; if someone has something worth contributing it, then it is worth contributing whether there is guild membership or not. I fully support quality checking of contributions before they are given to the public, but that doesn't need to mean a "guild inspection" (although was understandably an essential part of Cyan's previous model).
  • (OOC) Related to the above point, some guilds gave the impression of being selective about who they would permit participation from or set criteria for membership that effectively made them a "closed shop". That was probably the aspect that most set me against the guilds.
  • (OOC) The use of IC ranks like "Guild Master" is essentially determined by some arbitrary set of rules within the guild, and just comes across as a bit of an affectation. There are some who just take it all too seriously.
  • (IC) Some guilds can work into the in-game, day-to-day life of the cavern (although the term "Guild" isn't essential; I don't object to "giving a nod to D'ni history" in using the term though), other don't. The Greeters and Messengers are obvious examples of people providing a current day service that explorers will use. But as explorers, if we were to find a new book for example, would we always call the Maintainers to check it out first? When you first found the Minkata book in the Library did you check that it had a DRC approval stamp before linking?
  • (IC) As a restoration/exploration, do Writers really fit in? I know the plot is that some people are "learning the art", but to me it's stretching plausibility too far. We know that writing linking books was difficult even for those skilled in the art, and we seem to have difficulty translating basic D'ni texts, so how can we realistically claim to be writing (stable) ages?
OK, a bit of a monologoue on why I think the guilds are "a bad idea", but I need to qualify a fair chunk of this:
My gripe is with guilds per se, not the roles that they represent or the individuals within those guilds. It's great for content creators to be able to compare notes, share knowledge, etc., but it needs to be a forum that is open to everyone. Guilds, or equivalents, work in other MMOs, but I'm not sure if those other games have quite the same IC immersion that Uru has, or carry the historical connotations of the word "Guild". If people want to call these groups guilds, then fine, and I guess the main guilds exist now, and always will. Open Source may end up with shards having their own guild sub-sections, or equivalents, to manage the flow of user content. That's also fair, and it's probably important that those local groups have access to the "greater knowledge of the whole" if they wish, while implementing their own local rules. Almost a sort of Federal system.

Up to now, Cyan have, I think, had a final say on which guild names could be used, at least for those Guild names that have featured in the documented history of D'ni or were identified as possibly appearing in future content. I don't know if that kind of control will be maintainable under Open Source. I don't think anyone will object to some wanting the create "The Guild of Former Telephone Engineers" for example, but it'd be difficult to see what role they could play!

There will no doubt be shards or code branches that will stray outside of Cyan's Open Source licences. I don't think Cyan will need to police that too much as with this community things like that will pretty soon be brought to Cyan's attention anyway. The grapevine is pretty powerful in that way.

Apologies if this post rambles here and there - it's the way my mind works, and sometimes I don't have much control over where it darts off to ;)
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Re: New Guild Structure: Balance and Cooperation under Cyan

Post by Dot »

Nalates wrote:There is also the Devokan project, now in OSGrid. Dot likes thinking of much of what she does for distributing story and bringing people together as part of the GoMa effort. So, in one way of thinking she is writing (building) the age, testing, living in, RP'ing in, providing messenger services, art work, and all the other things the guilds do. There are a few people that work with her and help her as we can. But, I am unsure who considers their self part of which guild.
The GoMa aspect is probably just IC -- part of my own personal story.

But what has happened *has happened* -- and if GoMa hadn't been around and developed as it did, I probably wouldn't still be here, nor would I be developing Devokan with others.

Some people find an IC/OOC framework helpful to provide a sense of direction for what they create and do. But that framework needs to be flexible enough to allow individuals the freedom to work independently or cooperatively as they so choose.
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Re: New Guild Structure: Balance and Cooperation under Cyan

Post by Tai'lahr »

I think Jamey is seeking a structured environment that can guide and assist him in his endeavors. He knows what he wants to do, but can't find a good support system where his talents can be nurtured and developed. That's unfortunate. Ideally, Cyan would have overseen development of the guilds, provided direction from the top down, and cultivated them to become nuturing environments for all their members and provide quality content and services to the community. That ship has sailed. Instead, what we have is a hodgepodge of guilds and other groups as well as individuals working alone, all doing their own thing - much like America. This route still works and may even work better because now everyone has an opportunity to have their work considered (no politics to overcome). The cream will rise to the top and public opinion will help determine what Cyan ends up utilizing on their own server.

Having options is good, but it can also be overwhelming. So, how does someone like Jamey find their place in the community amidst all these options?
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Re: New Guild Structure: Balance and Cooperation under Cyan

Post by Nalates »

Mac_Fife, I think many fans have thinking similar to yours. The guilds have no real authority or say. They are just groups of people doing whatever they do.

I think most fans have the ‘guild idea’ upside down in that they seem to think it is the organization of the guild that is doing anything. The fans are doing things. They organize, and I use that word loosely, to support what they are doing and label that a guild. None of the guilds are doing anything that OU is not doing. Here fans have decided titles, ranks, privileges, participation, and etc. are not important and are to be mostly avoided… well… not participation. In that regard, while participation is important it is that it is based on individual choice not a set of qualifications and control.

To answer your ‘why’ question about recreating a plutocracy… there is no reason other than many fans thought it would be fun. It’s just what they did. It may well be that a future plutocracy will develop around those that run servers. I’m not sure what other social organization name will fit.

I agree with you that the ‘guilds’ idea gives players another ‘thing’ to figure out. Most seem to misunderstand how guilds work in Uru and they certainly seem to get lost in the historic, IC, and OOC distinctions of guilds. That alone is a good reason to avoid them. BUT… I think if there were no guilds in the Uru fan community new players would form them. It seems to be a natural spin off of Uru.

The guilds, membership, and the clicks of people that form and run guilds brings with it all the problems of personalities clashing. But whether we call them guilds or not we are going to have some measure of drama simply because that is the way people are. We can see that in open source projects, politics, any fan group, and any other social grouping you can think of.

Rank within the guilds is arbitrary. Over time I have learned the majority of people want some measure of rank or status. As Dot pointed out, some people need some structure to roll well. Whether that is just ego, a by-product of their social learning in RL, or what I am unsure. When the GoC was set up the rules were written so people could see that rank and status reflected what actually gave people rank and status in the OOC community, basically service to the community.

While there is nothing to keep anyone from deciding to say they are a member of a guild, most people seem hesitant to do that. Something is needed to give them permission, even though they do not need it… They also needed some way to advance. In the GoC we wrote those out. One could just do a map and decide to say they are a master in the GoC, or even skip the map. But, by posting rules people can self advance and play within a structure. It is there for those that need or want it. Most people seem to prefer that. All the guild can ever do is go through the IC motions of acknowledging the accomplishment and pronouncing them whatever.

To me a bizarre aspect of the guild issues is that anyone thinks they can keep another from participating. It just boggles my mind. More worrying to me is that others think they can be kept from participating in the community. I understand one could be excluded from some small group within the community. But, the majority of the community is open to all.

Do writers fit in? I think they do. The obstacles you point out are rational. I see becoming a writer and learning the art as the IC side of the OOC process of learning modeling and programming to write an age. For the parallel to work one must be able to learn the D’ni art IC’ly as they learn Blender OOC’ly.

The part of the IC story that possibly conflicts is whether we just find ages or open new ages created by current day writers. So far I think it has been a matter of finding old D’ni ages. But we have fans writing those as if they are just newly discovered ages. In that line I see where it would be an IC matter of having not yet learned to write ages. But as soon as someone wants to make a current day age with the Plasma engine… then it would seem the IC story would support someone having learned the Art.

More on Jamey’s topic… with Mac_Fife’s ideas… getting the guilds/fans organized to work together is what I was considering when I deiced to start Standards for Discussion & Debate. I see the problems as less about guilds and more about people and how they interact. We know we have a small group of socially challenged people creating problems in the community. We can ascribe those problems to guilds and try to fix the guilds. I expect that to be none productive, as we have been there and done that before. I am hopping SD&D is targeted at the cause more than the symptoms.
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Re: New Guild Structure: Balance and Cooperation under Cyan

Post by Jamey »

Nalates wrote: More on Jamey’s topic… with Mac_Fife’s ideas… getting the guilds/fans organized to work together is what I was considering when I deiced to start Standards for Discussion & Debate.* I see the problems as less about guilds and more about people and how they interact. We know we have a small group of socially challenged people creating problems in the community. We can ascribe those problems to guilds and try to fix the guilds. I expect that to be none productive, as we have been there and done that before. I am hopping SD&D is targeted at the cause more than the symptoms.
*I'm going to be honest Nalates, and say that this is probably the main reason I made this proposal in the first place.

I want to solve the problem with these people, but I'm unsure as to how. I grow tiresome of playing politics and double-standards over at the GoW forums, not to mention representing people who obviously don't like Cyan Worlds very much, when it is not my viewpoint at all. I'd like to see better leadership, and more guild interactions going on. (If still possible) ;)

and...Tai'lahr hit the nail on the head completely. :)
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Re: New Guild Structure: Balance and Cooperation under Cyan

Post by Mac_Fife »

I had a bit of a rant about guilds, but I do think that what Jamey aspires to is worthwhile, provided that the scope is extended in the way that JWPlatt explained. What I see as being difficult, and is no doubt the crux of why Jamey posed the initial question, is that when Cyan sanctioned the use of the guild names they probably did so with some more or less vague idea of providing them with some guidance on how they would operate. As fan created content started to become a real possibility, the rules got fleshed out a bit. But that was when Cyan had funding to expend effort on such things. Now, the problem is, as Jamey asks, who can provide the oversight? The politics will likely make it very difficult to get consensus on appointing some body to act in Cyan's role. If you suggest that each group or guild can nominate a representative to serve on a council, then you'll have people who simply don't want to be part of any group either out in the cold or being a representative of a one-person group.

If a group doesn't like the way the oversight group is heading then it can just choose to ignore it. I don't immediately see any way around that problem, since within Open Source everything except obedience to the licences is voluntary.

What might help would be to start to bullet point the things that will actually benefit from co-ordination - think about the activities and forget the guild roles for now, and see where there might be logical break points. Kind of like breaking up a big software job - define the interfaces between each module and you don't need to worry about how each module works - so the same things could be done by multiple modules (guilds), each working to their own rules.
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Re: New Guild Structure: Balance and Cooperation under Cyan

Post by BAD »

Mac,

You are right on the pulse of the problem with what is going on. The problem is not about who does what and why, the problem is that no matter what people WANT to happen, the reality is that the train had left the station once the guilds had been sanctioned. They are *already* running and work together when necessary.

If you're a study of history, you know how idealism usually pans out in reality. For those that don't pay attention to history, idealism rarely produces any positive results. Usually the attempt to sustain an ideal ends up in extremism, war, and death.

I would say that a good 90% of the arguing going on in the Uru community is caused by idealists trying to impose *there idea* of what Uru is and should be. If these people would only except the reality of what is happening, things would go much smoother.
Last edited by JWPlatt on Sun Feb 28, 2010 3:18 am, edited 5 times in total.
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