New Guild Structure: Balance and Cooperation under Cyan

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Jamey
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Re: New Guild Structure: Balance and Cooperation under Cyan

Post by Jamey » Sun Feb 28, 2010 2:28 am

Mac_Fife wrote:I had a bit of a rant about guilds, but I do think that what Jamey aspires to is worthwhile, provided that the scope is extended in the way that JWPlatt explained. What I see as being difficult, and is no doubt the crux of why Jamey posed the initial question, is that when Cyan sanctioned the use of the guild names they probably did so with some more or less vague idea of providing them with some guidance on how they would operate. As fan created content started to become a real possibility, the rules got fleshed out a bit. But that was when Cyan had funding to expend effort on such things. Now, the problem is, as Jamey asks, who can provide the oversight? The politics will likely make it very difficult to get consensus on appointing some body to act in Cyan's role. If you suggest that each group or guild can nominate a representative to serve on a council, then you'll have people who simply don't want to be part of any group either out in the cold or being a representative of a one-person group.

If a group doesn't like the way the oversight group is heading then it can just choose to ignore it. I don't immediately see any way around that problem, since within Open Source everything except obedience to the licences is voluntary.

What might help would be to start to bullet point the things that will actually benefit from co-ordination - think about the activities and forget the guild roles for now, and see where there might be logical break points. Kind of like breaking up a big software job - define the interfaces between each module and you don't need to worry about how each module works - so the same things could be done by multiple modules (guilds), each working to their own rules.
Very great points Mac! :)

But the last paragraph had me a bit confused, are you saying that the community should set aside the label of guilds and positions, but still contribute their skills towards the growth of the community? Or do you mean that the guilds should break down into smaller sub-sections that each contribute small things? Or am I wrong on both parts and missed the point completely? :?

I sincerely apologize if I misunderstood the last paragraph, but everything else made complete sense to me ;)
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Re: New Guild Structure: Balance and Cooperation under Cyan

Post by realXCV » Sun Feb 28, 2010 7:10 am

I don't think having 100 times more Guilds would be a good solution. how would you break guilds like the writers guild? One guild to do the modeling, one guild to do the texturing, one guild to do the programming... You can't break it by age (one guild by age) as the number of guilds will grow even faster.

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Re: New Guild Structure: Balance and Cooperation under Cyan

Post by semplerfi » Sun Feb 28, 2010 8:53 am

Tai'lahr wrote:So, how does someone like Jamey find their place in the community amidst all these options?
In my humble attempt to help I’d like to share an observation. I have read and re-read this thread many times today. It is filled with excellent and incredibly informative posts by some very knowledgeable posters.

I like to ‘semplify ©’ things, it makes it easier for me to solve and then remember. XD

If we focus on this one statement.
Jamey wrote:”when it is not my viewpoint at all.”
Which I believe is key to Jamey’s issues; I would recommend Jamey entertaining some flexibility and adaptability in his view point.

My weird paraphrase, 'When the un-stoppable encounters the un-movable the results is impasse. To get around impasse something has to give. It is Ok to blink! Anything less only leads to irreversible negativity. ©’

Been there, done that... :mrgreen:

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Re: New Guild Structure: Balance and Cooperation under Cyan

Post by Mac_Fife » Sun Feb 28, 2010 1:09 pm

Jamey wrote:But the last paragraph had me a bit confused, are you saying that the community should set aside the label of guilds and positions, but still contribute their skills towards the growth of the community? Or do you mean that the guilds should break down into smaller sub-sections that each contribute small things? Or am I wrong on both parts and missed the point completely? :?
Maybe I didn't phrase it well. I'm not suggesting that anyone abandons guilds or that they should be broken down into smaller groups. What I'm suggesting is that what a guilds does may be represented by one or more activities. The same activities could be performed by non-guild aligned groups or even by individuals. If you know what the inputs to a process are and what it's outputs are then you can substitute that process with any other process.

There's a kind of workflow to the whole age creation process; some people will want to do whole thing end-to-end, others will only be able to contribute say, creation of textures, or maybe music. Some might be great at 3D modelling of objects, others at puzzle creation, and so on. Then there are the aspects of test and quality control. I'm just grabbing things from fresh air here, and there are probably people who are much better equipped to map out the whole thing than I am, but what I'm getting at is that if you know how to properly present something as a complete work product, then it can be used by the next link in the chain. Wether the "creator" or the "user" is a guild becomes largely irrelevant. So, for example, an individual could maybe do some of the work that the Cartographers might often do in creating a map, some of the initial bits of age creation that the Writers might do, then pass the result on for somebody else to take forward. That somebody else might be the Writers, it might be a shard specific group or just some other enthusiast.

You can maybe do a similar thing with storylines: Plot development, Character development, etc., but that may be harder.
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Re: New Guild Structure: Balance and Cooperation under Cyan

Post by Zardoz » Sun Feb 28, 2010 2:05 pm

From my perspective, much of the tension around guilds comes from the fact that they have very little role within the game itself - they are essentially a projection of the game outside to the real world. I have lots of fun within Uru engaging in what I would call mild role-playing - behaving as if Uru was the real world but not transforming myself into Guildmaster Zed. That's the U-R-U POV. In the real world, however, I have no interest in pretending that Uru or D'ni or, especially, the historical Guild structure has any relevance at all, or letting that restrict my options. For me, what works best for the humans that want to contribute to Uru's success is what matters the most, and for the reasons that Mac_Fife and others have set out, I don't think Guilds (as some but not all have defined them) are the best way to get things done.
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Re: New Guild Structure: Balance and Cooperation under Cyan

Post by Dot » Sun Feb 28, 2010 2:32 pm

MacFife's reply could be seen as what OpenUru.org is all about: a place where we can pool efforts to work constructively together, whether we choose to wear a guild label outside the site or not, whether we work in a team or as individuals.

Yes, there are conflicts and problems within the community. However, here is a place where people are determined to treat each other (and Cyan's IP etc.) with respect, and to focus on the job at hand.

Jamey, as I said in the hood the other day, let the others play their little power games. In the end, they are irrelevant. Ignore them, and instead get on with what you enjoy doing.

You have already shown that you can collaborate fruitfully with others, whether in the GoW or not, in creating ages. That, I think, might be what MacFife is getting at -- the different roles each of you took on -- and how the whole process worked out among you.

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Re: New Guild Structure: Balance and Cooperation under Cyan

Post by Tai'lahr » Sun Feb 28, 2010 3:23 pm

Jamey wrote:
Mac_Fife wrote:What might help would be to start to bullet point the things that will actually benefit from co-ordination - think about the activities and forget the guild roles for now, and see where there might be logical break points. Kind of like breaking up a big software job - define the interfaces between each module and you don't need to worry about how each module works - so the same things could be done by multiple modules (guilds), each working to their own rules.
<snip> are you saying that the community should set aside the label of guilds and positions, but still contribute their skills towards the growth of the community?
I think what Mac was trying to say is that YOU need to cast aside the labels and see how many people in the community can and do work together on various projects (including age creation) irregardless of whether they belong to a guild or other group.

Jamey, I'll be brutally honest with you here: I think part of your issue is that you want the label of Writer and feel like only the GoW can bestow that title on you. And, this is where you need to change your thinking. If you are creating ages or even just parts of them, then you ARE a Writer - whether you're a guild member or not. Hope that helps.

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Re: New Guild Structure: Balance and Cooperation under Cyan

Post by Jamey » Sun Feb 28, 2010 7:48 pm

Tai'lahr wrote:
Jamey wrote:
Mac_Fife wrote:What might help would be to start to bullet point the things that will actually benefit from co-ordination - think about the activities and forget the guild roles for now, and see where there might be logical break points. Kind of like breaking up a big software job - define the interfaces between each module and you don't need to worry about how each module works - so the same things could be done by multiple modules (guilds), each working to their own rules.
<snip> are you saying that the community should set aside the label of guilds and positions, but still contribute their skills towards the growth of the community?
I think what Mac was trying to say is that YOU need to cast aside the labels and see how many people in the community can and do work together on various projects (including age creation) irregardless of whether they belong to a guild or other group.

Jamey, I'll be brutally honest with you here: I think part of your issue is that you want the label of Writer and feel like only the GoW can bestow that title on you. And, this is where you need to change your thinking. If you are creating ages or even just parts of them, then you ARE a Writer - whether you're a guild member or not. Hope that helps.
An Independent Writer so to speak? I think I like that idea :)

Do you all think that by explorers casting out their affiliations and positions in specific Guilds, and by becoming independent in our contributions, we'd be able to make more progress overall as a community? Or would this prove to have the opposite effect? Or perhaps something in-between would result from this?
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Re: New Guild Structure: Balance and Cooperation under Cyan

Post by Mac_Fife » Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:19 pm

Jamey wrote:An Independent Writer so to speak? I think I like that idea :)
Well, a Freelance Writer ;)
Jamey wrote:Do you all think that by explorers casting out their affiliations and positions in specific Guilds, and by becoming independent in our contributions, we'd be able to make more progress overall as a community? Or would this prove to have the opposite effect? Or perhaps something in-between would result from this?
No, you can't ask people to to give up their guilds, nor should you need to, but the very nature of Open Source means that the creative process will transcend the boundaries of the guilds: For example, when MORE was touted by Cyan, I think the plan was (and correct me if I'm wrong) that the Cyan tools and plug-ins would be provided only to the GoW. I expect that was partly so that Cyan had some level of control over who they imparted access to key knowledge items to (since effectively they were handing over IP), but it placed the GoW in a position of privilege and the nett effect was that if you wanted to be a Writer (officially) then you had to join the GoW. With Open Source you can't constrain who does what, so everyone has equal access to the tools, sources, etc., that are provided. What that really means is that people need to find ways to work together, whether they are pro-guild, anti-guild or simply guild-agnostic.
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Re: New Guild Structure: Balance and Cooperation under Cyan

Post by Dot » Sun Feb 28, 2010 10:58 pm

The creative process has ALWAYS transcended any guild or group boundaries. It's just that some individuals might have chosen to label themselves as belonging to a particular guild/group and others not.

Their creativity is not affected by their chosen affiliation (though it might be constrained by it, if the group they belong to is like that).

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