Where to Begin (The Game)

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realXCV
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Re: Where to Begin (The Game)

Post by realXCV »

For an established avatar (or even a new one), starting in the hood might not be the best idea. Especially for thoses in a very populated hood.
Gehn, lord of ages wrote:
  • We'd need to have two links from Relto - to the Cleft and to a neighborhood (or some other public Age). How would we distribute these? If the Cleft is on a pedestal outside, and the neighborhood link in the bookshelf, then people might not notice the neighboorhood link. They'd then go through the Cleft alone, without explanation or help (so they might think that the whole game is empty like it, or that they have to get past it to get to populated areas). That's clearly not good. Perhaps a note in the Cleft book?
  • If we instead put the neighboorhood link (or whatever Age if we chose to put some other better public area in its place) in the pedestal, and the Cleft in the bookshelf, then does the Cleft book just disappear when you get the journey pillars? It would make the final gain of the Cleft book rather anticlimactic, I think.
  • Having two pedestals (or two books in the shelf) wouldn't help. There'd be about a 50-50 chance of the person picking the Cleft book first, with the same problems as I mentioned in the first option.
Have you ever watched the MOUL intro?

Unless the starting point is the Relto, the Relto book should be the first and only book available to the player. If the starting point is the desert with a possibility of running to the cleft, the pillar page becomes very anticlimatic for thoses who choose that path.
Gehn, lord of ages
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Re: Where to Begin (The Game)

Post by Gehn, lord of ages »

Mac_Fife wrote:I guess really there are two "starting points" to consider: "Start the game" (per the thread topic) and "Re-join the game". For re-joining, Relto or a 'hood both seem OK and rational to me, and I don't see a reason why that couldn't actually be a choice you make when you select your avvie and click the button; provide two start buttons; one for solo and one for multiplayer. For a new avatar, Solo takes you to the traditional cleft start, Multi takes you to whatever eventually gets decided upon here. For an established avatar, Solo goes to Relto, Multi goes to your 'hood.

I'm sure it's not a s simple as that though ;)
I think both would need more explanation then "solo" and "multiplayer", to make sure that people understand that they are just starting in those conditions (and that the "solo" option isn't just a single player game).
For an established avatar (or even a new one), starting in the hood might not be the best idea. Especially for thoses in a very populated hood.
Yeah, I'd say starting (more specifically, what Mac Fife terms "re-joining") in the 'hood should be an option if it is used at all.
Have you ever watched the MOUL intro?
You mean where it explains the "alone" or "together" part? I guess that would work (but depending on the overall instancing logistics and other changes, the intro might not work for Open Uru).
Unless the starting point is the Relto, the Relto book should be the first and only book available to the player.
Yeah. It's just too complicated if it isn't (making sure that all Ages available before it have no ways to get stuck or fall off things, for one). Of course, a link to a tiny room-Age with a Relto book in it would be okay (hypothetically if we had some good plan that needed it for some odd reason).
If the starting point is the desert with a possibility of running to the cleft, the pillar page becomes very anticlimatic for thoses who choose that path.
Could you elaborate on why? It's a rather major page. Also, the page isn't the only thing gained - the Cleft is the beginning of the first Journey, and all the mystery and information that comes from it. Zandi doesn't even mention the Relto book (if I remember right) - he tells you that "she's left a message for you...". To me, the message - the start of the journey and the introduction to Yeesha - is the major thing in the Cleft (and the journey pillars, which correspond to the message in a way). The gain of a Relto book might add a little to the whole experience, but there's a lot of benefit in giving it out earlier (for people who don't want to have to go through the Cleft just to get to Relto and other places).
My posts represent the views of me, Gehn, lord of ages, and not any companies or groups which I don't belong to. :D
realXCV
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Re: Where to Begin (The Game)

Post by realXCV »

Gehn, lord of ages wrote:
For an established avatar (or even a new one), starting in the hood might not be the best idea. Especially for thoses in a very populated hood.
Yeah, I'd say starting (more specifically, what Mac Fife terms "re-joining") in the 'hood should be an option if it is used at all.
Starting or re-joining, the hood shouldn't be an option.
Have you ever watched the MOUL intro?
You mean where it explains the "alone" or "together" part? I guess that would work (but depending on the overall instancing logistics and other changes, the intro might not work for Open Uru).
Something like that. The part that explain where is the book to the hood and where is the book to the cleft.
If the starting point is the desert with a possibility of running to the cleft, the pillar page becomes very anticlimatic for thoses who choose that path.
Could you elaborate on why? It's a rather major page. Also, the page isn't the only thing gained - the Cleft is the beginning of the first Journey, and all the mystery and information that comes from it. Zandi doesn't even mention the Relto book (if I remember right) - he tells you that "she's left a message for you...". To me, the message - the start of the journey and the introduction to Yeesha - is the major thing in the Cleft (and the journey pillars, which correspond to the message in a way). The gain of a Relto book might add a little to the whole experience, but there's a lot of benefit in giving it out earlier (for people who don't want to have to go through the Cleft just to get to Relto and other places).
It might be a major page but only if you have already been to your relto or if you know its purpose. Zandi doesn't mention the book but he says "enter the tree". If you have played MOUL, you know that it's the page that allow you to go to the other ages of the first journey. If you are a new player (or even in some cases: an Uru player), you will enter that tree to get nothing more than a page. You already saw two other pages which didn't do anything specific and after having found all the needed cloths to enter the tree, all you get as a reward is a page.
Lehm
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Re: Where to Begin (The Game)

Post by Lehm »

Mac_Fife wrote:I guess really there are two "starting points" to consider: "Start the game" (per the thread topic) and "Re-join the game". For re-joining, Relto or a 'hood both seem OK and rational to me, and I don't see a reason why that couldn't actually be a choice you make when you select your avvie and click the button; provide two start buttons; one for solo and one for multiplayer. For a new avatar, Solo takes you to the traditional cleft start, Multi takes you to whatever eventually gets decided upon here. For an established avatar, Solo goes to Relto, Multi goes to your 'hood.

I'm sure it's not a s simple as that though ;)
this idea could work. It's not without precedence. Other mmo's have had the option to skip the intro/tutorial. So it kind of makes sense. It might be better to make it two options. The first would be when you create a new avie you have the choice to skip the intro area...go right to the cleft. Then the choice of where you log in to could be a game setting in the menu. This way you could change it later on.

I think a lot of people wouldn't want a link from the neighborhood to the Cleft, because it would be linking in the same Age.
Ahhhh....forgot about that. So easy to forget. But it doesn't matter anyway. Doesn't sound that's the way the discussion is headed.
Gehn, lord of ages
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Re: Where to Begin (The Game)

Post by Gehn, lord of ages »

realXCV wrote:
Gehn, lord of ages wrote:
For an established avatar (or even a new one), starting in the hood might not be the best idea. Especially for thoses in a very populated hood.
Yeah, I'd say starting (more specifically, what Mac Fife terms "re-joining") in the 'hood should be an option if it is used at all.
Starting or re-joining, the hood shouldn't be an option.
I mean for when a person logs into the game in an established avatar. Some people like the feel of starting in an apartment in a 'hood - it's closer to other players and strikes some as more D'ni-ish. Aside from technical problems, I don't see anything against it being an option (if there was a reasonable way to choose and all).
It might be a major page but only if you have already been to your relto or if you know its purpose. Zandi doesn't mention the book but he says "enter the tree". If you have played MOUL, you know that it's the page that allow you to go to the other ages of the first journey. If you are a new player (or even in some cases: an Uru player), you will enter that tree to get nothing more than a page. You already saw two other pages which didn't do anything specific and after having found all the needed cloths to enter the tree, all you get as a reward is a page.
Okay, I see the point to that. The ending should be a clear ending, so that people don't just go back up and start looking for the next part of the puzzle. Perhaps the other Relto pages in the Cleft only show up after you get this journey pillar one, so the page is something new at least. Perhaps other Relto pages don't even work before you get this one?
And then there's the various ideas with a Relto book as only an option at the beginning. So if you don't take the book then (which is clearly for the people who want to skip the intro part for some reason - by the time they'd be coming back to the Cleft for the journey Relto page, they might know its significance more), the puzzles will culminate in the book just like in ABM.
It might be better to make it two options. The first would be when you create a new avie you have the choice to skip the intro area...go right to the cleft.
The Cleft is the intro area, though. A "skip intro" should take the player to Relto (and make sure it's worded so people don't think they're just skipping a little video in the beginning :P ).

Okay, I've edited my idea a little. There's an easy way to almost immediately skip past the Cleft (almost immediately because people would probably spend a little time looking at the descriptions - they'd do this for a similar OOC set of options as well) by taking a Relto book. People are encouraged, though, to instead go through the Cleft (and they get a Relto book with the journey pillars at the end, as well as hearing Yeesha and Zandi and learning about the start of the journey). The brochures explain things a little more, making sure people know how to get to a neighborhood and other such helpful points (probably telling people to get a KI, for example). It's a kind of IC help guide. The place would be very small, so it would load fairly quickly, and would be a little more immersive and mysterious than a simple OOC menu.
My posts represent the views of me, Gehn, lord of ages, and not any companies or groups which I don't belong to. :D
Lehm
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Re: Where to Begin (The Game)

Post by Lehm »

Gehn, lord of ages wrote: The Cleft is the intro area, though. A "skip intro" should take the player to Relto (and make sure it's worded so people don't think they're just skipping a little video in the beginning :P ).
The idea was the the multiplayer pre area was skippable. It would be inconsistant to have some people start in the cleft and some to start in relto. Because if you start in the cleft the reward for completion is relto, so you'd also have to remove all the relto pages and put them somewhere else. If you start in relto you'd have to have a different ending, probably what's there now. So you'd end up with a completely different cleft file for the two different versions. I think this difference should be handle through different distros. Why would you not want to do the cleft anyway. If you take out the original ages your left with like 25% of the game. The people that want to skip these are VASTLY in the minority.
Gehn, lord of ages
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Re: Where to Begin (The Game)

Post by Gehn, lord of ages »

Lehm wrote: The idea was the the multiplayer pre area was skippable. It would be inconsistant to have some people start in the cleft and some to start in relto. Because if you start in the cleft the reward for completion is relto, so you'd also have to remove all the relto pages and put them somewhere else. If you start in relto you'd have to have a different ending, probably what's there now. So you'd end up with a completely different cleft file for the two different versions. I think this difference should be handle through different distros. Why would you not want to do the cleft anyway. If you take out the original ages your left with like 25% of the game. The people that want to skip these are VASTLY in the minority.
Ah, a difference in the purpose of the multiplayer pre-Cleft areas - should have thought of that. Some of the multiplayer pre-Cleft areas suggested are basically so that people can meet immediately and to add various starting storyline elements (making the story easy to understand for new players, for example), and those are the ones you are referring to. Some, though, are basically made to be ways that new players can choose whether to go to Relto or the Cleft, or whether to go alone or together through the Cleft. An OOC option would basically make these unnecessary, so I thought wasn't even thinking of them.

Anyway, I don't think there would be that much trouble with an option between starting at the Cleft and "skipping" it to start somewhere else (Relto or a neighborhood). These Relto books could be from a different source, and could just not have the journey page. The Cleft itself wouldn't change that much - surely there's a simple way to have it show either a book or a page depending on if the person has a Relto book already (or just show a book and page both times - players without Relto books would pick up the book and then the page [which also handily introduces them to Relto pages]; players with Relto books would ignore the book and pick up the page), and I'm not exactly sure what you mean by the ending changing (have I forgotten something?).

I don't think many players would want to avoid the Cleft entirely - many might want to skip it temporarily, though, or not go through it with second avatars. People might want to hurry in an avatar for some event (and not want to hassle at that time with the Cleft), or quickly get to friends or other players. Some people might want to make sure they have help first before going through the Cleft (instead of just going through alone while still unused to the game). Some avatars might be just for certain things (acting in various fan lead stories, helping friends, etc.) and the player might never need to go through the original Ages. Players with only little amounts of time might want to devote their time to group Age exploration or just to new Ages and such. With all of those reasons, it's no longer such a small minority.
My posts represent the views of me, Gehn, lord of ages, and not any companies or groups which I don't belong to. :D
realXCV
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Re: Where to Begin (The Game)

Post by realXCV »

Gehn, lord of ages wrote: I mean for when a person logs into the game in an established avatar.
Me too.
Okay, I see the point to that. The ending should be a clear ending, so that people don't just go back up and start looking for the next part of the puzzle. Perhaps the other Relto pages in the Cleft only show up after you get this journey pillar one, so the page is something new at least. Perhaps other Relto pages don't even work before you get this one?
And then there's the various ideas with a Relto book as only an option at the beginning. So if you don't take the book then (which is clearly for the people who want to skip the intro part for some reason - by the time they'd be coming back to the Cleft for the journey Relto page, they might know its significance more), the puzzles will culminate in the book just like in ABM.
That's an interesting idea.
Okay, I've edited my idea a little. There's an easy way to almost immediately skip past the Cleft (almost immediately because people would probably spend a little time looking at the descriptions - they'd do this for a similar OOC set of options as well) by taking a Relto book. People are encouraged, though, to instead go through the Cleft (and they get a Relto book with the journey pillars at the end, as well as hearing Yeesha and Zandi and learning about the start of the journey). The brochures explain things a little more, making sure people know how to get to a neighborhood and other such helpful points (probably telling people to get a KI, for example). It's a kind of IC help guide. The place would be very small, so it would load fairly quickly, and would be a little more immersive and mysterious than a simple OOC menu.
The avatar should automatically link to the Relto when he picks the book at the starting point. In the cleft, the pages shouldn't be visible if the player doesn't have a Relto book. The only drawback with having a book at the end of the cleft is that it doesn't work well with multiplayer.
players without Relto books would pick up the book and then the page
Or the page could already be in the book.
Lehm wrote:Because if you start in the cleft the reward for completion is relto, so you'd also have to remove all the relto pages and put them somewhere else.
Just make them invisible while the player doesn't have his Relto. He will still have to come back to the cleft at the end of the journey.
So you'd end up with a completely different cleft file for the two different versions.
One cleft with a relto book, the other with relto pages. This can easily be made by using SDL variables.
If you take out the original ages your left with like 25% of the game.
There's more than 6 ages....
Gehn, lord of ages
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Re: Where to Begin (The Game)

Post by Gehn, lord of ages »

realXCV wrote:
Gehn, lord of ages wrote: I mean for when a person logs into the game in an established avatar.
Me too.
So could you elaborate on why logging into a 'hood should not be an option?

Okay, I've edited my idea a little. There's an easy way to almost immediately skip past the Cleft (almost immediately because people would probably spend a little time looking at the descriptions - they'd do this for a similar OOC set of options as well) by taking a Relto book. People are encouraged, though, to instead go through the Cleft (and they get a Relto book with the journey pillars at the end, as well as hearing Yeesha and Zandi and learning about the start of the journey). The brochures explain things a little more, making sure people know how to get to a neighborhood and other such helpful points (probably telling people to get a KI, for example). It's a kind of IC help guide. The place would be very small, so it would load fairly quickly, and would be a little more immersive and mysterious than a simple OOC menu.
The avatar should automatically link to the Relto when he picks the book at the starting point. In the cleft, the pages shouldn't be visible if the player doesn't have a Relto book. The only drawback with having a book at the end of the cleft is that it doesn't work well with multiplayer.
Yeah, I think the avatar would just put the book on naturally and link immediately. I'm not sure about the pages (either way is okay for me - I guess it might confuse people, though, to see these pages with no apparent purpose).
players without Relto books would pick up the book and then the page
Or the page could already be in the book.
Yes, but that was specifically for if we needed the Cleft to be exactly the same for both people with a Relto book (without the journey page) and without one. If that isn't necessary (not sure what would make it necessary - technical problems or some set up with a multiplayer Cleft, perhaps), then the page will work just as fine inside the book (and if it was outside, the avatar would automatically pick it up).
My posts represent the views of me, Gehn, lord of ages, and not any companies or groups which I don't belong to. :D
realXCV
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Re: Where to Begin (The Game)

Post by realXCV »

Gehn, lord of ages wrote:So could you elaborate on why logging into a 'hood should not be an option?
Do you really want to wait 20 minutes just to get into the game?
Yes, but that was specifically for if we needed the Cleft to be exactly the same for both people with a Relto book (without the journey page) and without one. If that isn't necessary (not sure what would make it necessary - technical problems or some set up with a multiplayer Cleft, perhaps), then the page will work just as fine inside the book (and if it was outside, the avatar would automatically pick it up).
Only two possibilities: either you enter the cleft directly without a relto book or you link to it using the pillar in relto.
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