Where to Begin (The Game)

[Gehn, lord of ages]

There are a couple of problems I have with virtually all of these multi-player start scenarios:
The first is the number of players. If you have a smallish shard, say 200 subscribers then, apart from when the shard first starts up, you're pretty unlikley to actually encounter another player who happens to want to start a new game/new avvie at around the same time as you, which could make the whole idea of a multi-player start a bit of a moot point On the other hand, if you have a bigger shard, with maybe 1000 or more subscribers then you have the opposite problem at start up with the collection point getting mobbed and lagged out. So you instance once the start point has more than, say 20 players. But you could still end up with someone getting dropped into an instance by themsleves, yet they might "know" other people are also joining the game. That might be OK if everyone understands the limitations of MMO games, but a lot of newbies take time to get their heads round instancing, and don't understand what's happening.

True. Of course, single player areas can also cause this disorientation.

How do you explain people suddenly appearing out of nowhere in the desert, before linking is explained or available? Unlike something like WoW which is pure fantasy and anything can be explained as "it's just magic", Myst/URU has always been fantasy with an air of real world believability, and the Cleft/desert, as a "surface" location, has to be more believable than anywhere else.

I think most plans here can work by having the avatars "walking in from the distance" (from some unspecified road or path). Also, in town or parking lot starting areas, there can be a building that they walk out of (it is assumed that they went into the building through another entrance, or had been inside the whole time).

Okay did some thinking and perhaps there is a compromise on the party system. What if everyone gets some kind of token suggested before, perhaps you pick it up that into town/lot/place that's been suggested. But this token doesn't automatically take you to a multiplayer cleft. It would become an icon on your hud just like the relto book. When you want to join someone's party you offer your token just like the relto book. The other person is then free to accept. If he does you two are put into the same party and whenever one goes to an instanced age...the other will go to the same instanced age. No more link sharing. I think this idea is a least consistant with what Cyan as already done. It's a hud option with an IC explanation...just like the relto book.

The problem with symbolic things like this is in explaining them clearly without making it seem like they are part of the "magic" of the world. I personally would have no clue that I was supposed to grab a token and then select someone else with it to join into a group.

And realXCV why would you only see the proposed intro area once? I'd imagine you'd be able to link back to it. In fact I think it'd be a great place for the GoG if they were willing. Right now you have to go find them. Wouldn't it make more sense to have them at the beginning, were beginners need them most?

Yes, I think any intro area should have a way to go back to it so that experienced players (the GoG, bored explorers wanting to help new players, or friends introducing people to Uru) can go back to help.

The extra step is useful therefore because it allows people to get help immediately, and to choose what way to take (whether to go to solve the Cleft with others [other new players or experienced players] or to go alone or to skip it [if they need/want to get somewhere else quicker]).

I think that'd work. But you wouldn't need the token at all since the use of the icon would be elective anyway, so even simpler (at least from a player perspective - I expect that there are player state variables to be updated in the database whatever option is chosen).

Yeah, I think an abstract icon would work better (so people won't be confused about these magical tokens), perhaps something like the "share book" icon in the Relto book (except this would just be placed in the hud next to the Relto book and KI). We still need a way to tell people how to use this, though (a plain OOC explanation right at the beginning could ruin the mysterious feel for some people, and I'm not sure if everyone would notice OOC descriptions outside of the game [tutorials, explanations, whatever]).

These are the main things I believe should be in an intro

• A clear way to the Cleft alone or multiplayer in a way that doesn't crowd the puzzles (I can't think of any ways to do this, though), have them already solved, or ruin the mystery and immersion of the Cleft.
• A way to quickly get help and explanation. OOC is okay, but I'd rather have it IC.
• A way to quickly "skip" the Cleft. There are rational reasons for skipping the Cleft*, and I don't think we should hinder people in that. This would probably mean a quick way to get a Relto book. I'd suggest that these Reltos would not come with the pillars for the ABM Ages, as that journey starts in the Cleft. Also, they should be marked so that people without reasons to skip the Cleft won't accidentally take them an link out before exploring the Cleft.
• A way to go through the Cleft with others (but this could be done with just the Cleft pillar and all in Relto so that anyone you invite to Relto could link to your instance of the Cleft through it).

*For example, a person might want to bring in their second avatar in quickly (for roleplaying, perhaps), and would not need to see the Cleft or get anything. Or, a player might want to join the game mainly to hang out with their friends. The time going through the Cleft would be, for this hypothetical person, better spent working through puzzles with the group.

A simple way to do this might be this: You start at a spot right outside the Cleft fence (as a separate very tiny place with most of the Cleft and all as backgrounds - this would just be so that it would load faster). You start with a couple things in their hands. One is a brochure (like a travel pamphlet thing) that is talking about D'ni (could be from the DRC or some other cavern organization). It gives some vague directions on how to get to the Cleft's general area, and tells you to how to get a Relto book (from some other place). You've apparently followed these directions, because you also have a Relto book in your hand. The brochure tells you how to use the Relto book (explained like how someone would IC to a person who never handled a linking book), and tells you how you how to get from your Relto to a public area (a neighborhood, probably). The Relto book, though, contains a note from Zandi. It says that if you need to, you can use the book at any time. However, he wants you to see him at his trailer. He tells you to just go to the Volcano and come in through one of the gates (you are standing right next to one). If you follow this advice and open the gate, the Cleft loads, and you can now go through it (with Zandi giving help) and get the Relto page for the journey pillars. If you don't follow this advise, or at any time decide to skip the Cleft for now, you can use your Relto book - the Cleft pedestal thing will be there so that you can link back at any time (and you can bring friends). The note disappears (you must have put it in your pocket or dropped it or something).

[Mac_Fife]

I think most plans here can work by having the avatars "walking in from the distance" (from some unspecified road or path). Also, in town or parking lot starting areas, there can be a building that they walk out of (it is assumed that they went into the building through another entrance, or had been inside the whole time).

Yeah, I thought about walking out of a Minkata style sandstorm, or out of a building or bus but I struggled with "what happens if two or more people join at the same time?". There'd have to be forced animation for the walk; I don't think it could be a cut-scene since you're ending up in a populated area. You'd probably need to keep avvies apart until they get close to the reception area, which means having multiple drop-in points. It just seems like there might still be a lot of problems.

Yes, I think any intro area should have a way to go back to it so that experienced players (the GoG, bored explorers wanting to help new players, or friends introducing people to Uru) can go back to help.

Agreed. Anywhere you can get to once in the game should be revisitable by some means.

The extra step is useful therefore because it allows people to get help immediately, and to choose what way to take (whether to go to solve the Cleft with others [other new players or experienced players] or to go alone or to skip it [if they need/want to get somewhere else quicker]).

Yeah, sure, I buy the justification. It's the logistics that trouble me. You're starting in a public area, presumably within walking distance and in sight of the traditional start point by the signpost. You then have to get people from that reception area to both public and private instances of the cleft. If you want to go solo but there's also a group outing by the New Mexico Spelunkers what happens to the group as you walk to the Cleft? They just fade out? Similarly if you invoke a vehicle to transport people: How do you manage queuing and letting a single group get on one bus, etc.? The simplest way to deal with moving between public and private is by linking, but you'd have to do two links to move between places on Earth, and that doesn't make sense to do.

Yeah, I think an abstract icon would work better (so people won't be confused about these magical tokens), perhaps something like the "share book" icon in the Relto book (except this would just be placed in the hud next to the Relto book and KI). We still need a way to tell people how to use this, though

The in-game help panel could do this. It explains a bit about other game controls, so there's no real reason it couldn't give a brief explanation of the HUD icon. Thinking on it some more, the icon would have to be only visible at the reception area, since it'd serve no purpose anywhere else (well, it could but that might be even harder to explain). And I start to wonder if that just becomes more confusing .

[realXCV]

And realXCV why would you only see the proposed intro area once? I'd imagine you'd be able to link back to it. In fact I think it'd be a great place for the GoG if they were willing. Right now you have to go find them. Wouldn't it make more sense to have them at the beginning, were beginners need them most?

That was based on the single player start mentionned by Mac_Fife.

In a multiplayer cleft, how do you manage Zandi's speeches? Are they linked to the players or to the instance? If you stay close enough to hear him but far enough to not trigger a speech, do you hear him do his intro speech again and again as players come to him? If you turn on the windmill in a multiplayer cleft, link to your relto and link back to the cleft, would the willmill be still enabled? What would happen if a player who has finished Ahnonay and Ercana and knows the code for the link to K'veer goes back to the starting place, follows a group in a multiplayer cleft and enters the code in the imager? Same question with the other code (after ABM ages). Can you reach a multiplayer cleft with the fissure?

[Gehn, lord of ages]

Yeah, I thought about walking out of a Minkata style sandstorm, or out of a building or bus but I struggled with "what happens if two or more people join at the same time?". There'd have to be forced animation for the walk; I don't think it could be a cut-scene since you're ending up in a populated area. You'd probably need to keep avvies apart until they get close to the reception area, which means having multiple drop-in points. It just seems like there might still be a lot of problems.

How many people would we expect to log in at the exact same time? Aside from a few occasions, I think having just a couple entrance points (for example, letting two people walk out of a door at the same time, or two people walking in from the distance) would work. Unless it's a really long animation, the next people won't have to wait that long.

Yeah, sure, I buy the justification. It's the logistics that trouble me. You're starting in a public area, presumably within walking distance and in sight of the traditional start point by the signpost. You then have to get people from that reception area to both public and private instances of the cleft. If you want to go solo but there's also a group outing by the New Mexico Spelunkers what happens to the group as you walk to the Cleft? They just fade out? Similarly if you invoke a vehicle to transport people: How do you manage queuing and letting a single group get on one bus, etc.? The simplest way to deal with moving between public and private is by linking, but you'd have to do two links to move between places on Earth, and that doesn't make sense to do.

You'd just not see other groups keeping up with you (or going the same direction as you, or so on). During the cut scene of you walking to the Cleft, groups behind yours would appear to be going slower until they stopped being visible behind you (and the camera angle would help by not making it obvious) - groups to the sides would go in a different direction - groups in front would be walking faster and you wouldn't catch up.

The in-game help panel could do this. It explains a bit about other game controls, so there's no real reason it couldn't give a brief explanation of the HUD icon. Thinking on it some more, the icon would have to be only visible at the reception area, since it'd serve no purpose anywhere else (well, it could but that might be even harder to explain). And I start to wonder if that just becomes more confusing .

I'm thinking that such an icon would be rather extreme to just be useful in the beginning area.

In a multiplayer cleft, how do you manage Zandi's speeches? Are they linked to the players or to the instance? If you stay close enough to hear him but far enough to not trigger a speech, do you hear him do his intro speech again and again as players come to him? If you turn on the windmill in a multiplayer cleft, link to your relto and link back to the cleft, would the willmill be still enabled? What would happen if a player who has finished Ahnonay and Ercana and knows the code for the link to K'veer goes back to the starting place, follows a group in a multiplayer cleft and enters the code in the imager? Same question with the other code (after ABM ages). Can you reach a multiplayer cleft with the fissure?

(this is for ideas with both one or more multiplayer instances, and one or more private instances of the Cleft - some of my answers only work if there are also private instances)
Zandi's speeches -- He'd address people individually (in that he'll repeat the same thing to each person if they keep coming back to him), but won't repeat things for people who were in hearing range when he said it last (so if a group comes to him, he'll just say the thing once). He can sprinkle in some of the random phrases as well (especially the one about "how hard it is to read a book" or whatever ).
The intro speech -- Hmm. A call or something to tell everyone to come over would be nice. I think it would basically be like the other speeches - he'll repeat it for the people who weren't there before.
Windmill -- I'd say no (and this wouldn't be odd, because it could have jammed or stopped, or someone might have stopped it while you were gone - you can't tell what happened while you were away). This would let people who had left the multiplayer cleft to solve it themselves be able to solve it by themselves.
Codes -- Hmm... That would be logical, but very annoying (well, in most cases - some people might want to see that first and specifically ask for it). Maybe by links would only work for the experienced player? It's a rather rude thing to do, if not asked, but is basically just like a big spoiler.
Fissure -- No. If you have other people fall in from the Fissure in your Relto, then they will arrive in your private instance of the Cleft with you. Other than that, there wouldn't be anyone else. It would be rather confusing for new players (to have people falling in from the sky), and would confuse everyone trying to go at the imager at the same time...

[realXCV]

[quote="Gehn, lord of ages]Windmill -- I'd say no (and this wouldn't be odd, because it could have jammed or stopped, or someone might have stopped it while you were gone - you can't tell what happened while you were away).[/quote]
This explaination works for the windmill or anything that can be reverted. However, it doesn't work for the bucket or the falling bridge.

Codes -- Hmm... That would be logical, but very annoying (well, in most cases - some people might want to see that first and specifically ask for it). Maybe by links would only work for the experienced player? It's a rather rude thing to do, if not asked, but is basically just like a big spoiler.

The codes are differents for each player. That means that the imager should accept many different codes for one specific message.

Fissure -- No. If you have other people fall in from the Fissure in your Relto, then they will arrive in your private instance of the Cleft with you. Other than that, there wouldn't be anyone else. It would be rather confusing for new players (to have people falling in from the sky), and would confuse everyone trying to go at the imager at the same time...

There's still the risk of having a stack of avatars when yeesha gives the second part of her second speech.

[Lehm]

I suspect that if there were a multiplayer cleft the rules would be the same as the other instanced ages. If your party turns the windmill on, the next time they were to come back then I don't see why it wouldn't be on. As for Zandi dialog. If you're traveling as a party your all likely to be near each other. So when zandi starts talking most likely everyone will be near enough to hear. If someone wanders off and misses part...sucks to be him. His choice.

[Gehn, lord of ages]

This explaination works for the windmill or anything that can be reverted. However, it doesn't work for the bucket or the falling bridge.

Ah, good catch. I think the bucket will work fine (while there's no way that our avatars can revert it, I'm sure it would be IC possible), the falling bridge would be somewhat odd. Well, is it more important to have everything in the place stay the way it logically would, or to let the player have their own experience of the bridge?

Codes -- Hmm... That would be logical, but very annoying (well, in most cases - some people might want to see that first and specifically ask for it). Maybe by links would only work for the experienced player? It's a rather rude thing to do, if not asked, but is basically just like a big spoiler.

The codes are differents for each player. That means that the imager should accept many different codes for one specific message.

Okay, then. I'd say that the imager should work only for the specific combination of the instance it is in. So if it's my private instance, then it should work for the combination that I would have found in the bahro caves and all. Since the original public cleft would be a public instance, it wouldn't have any combination for that speech (or we would never know what the combination was). Players would have to get the Fissure to open in their Relto to go through that.

Fissure -- No. If you have other people fall in from the Fissure in your Relto, then they will arrive in your private instance of the Cleft with you. Other than that, there wouldn't be anyone else. It would be rather confusing for new players (to have people falling in from the sky), and would confuse everyone trying to go at the imager at the same time...

There's still the risk of having a stack of avatars when yeesha gives the second part of her second speech.

But, if we have it so that the Fissure links to a private instance of the Cleft (even if you can let others jump in too), then it would only be people purposefully there.

As for Zandi dialog. If you're traveling as a party your all likely to be near each other. So when zandi starts talking most likely everyone will be near enough to hear. If someone wanders off and misses part...sucks to be him. His choice.

I don't think that we can assume that every group will stick together. Many, I think, will do so naturally. There's nothing stopping some groups from breaking up, though. If they did so, then IC it would be reasonable for Zandi to repeat himself for those who he knew weren't around to hear the message.

[realXCV]

This explaination works for the windmill or anything that can be reverted. However, it doesn't work for the bucket or the falling bridge.

Ah, good catch. I think the bucket will work fine (while there's no way that our avatars can revert it, I'm sure it would be IC possible), the falling bridge would be somewhat odd. Well, is it more important to have everything in the place stay the way it logically would, or to let the player have their own experience of the bridge?

Both. But if you are in a public cleft, you have to expect that you won't experience everything as if you were the only one there.

There's still the risk of having a stack of avatars when yeesha gives the second part of her second speech.

But, if we have it so that the Fissure links to a private instance of the Cleft (even if you can let others jump in too), then it would only be people purposefully there.

If there are 50 people in your Relto jumping in your Fissure, logically they will end up in your private cleft. If you enter the second speech code in the imager and you all use the book to the cleft. Remember that unlike normal book sharing, Yeesha doesn't close the book as soon as someone use it so more that one person could use it. Following the logic with links to private instances, everyone should end up in the same rainy cleft instance in which yeesha gives the second part of the speech and where you can't move until she finishes it. And because not everyone has the same computer, the same internet speed, what it might look like is:
Returning.
One final gift
*linking sound*
Something that no d'ni writer
*linking sound*
*linking sound*
*linking sound*
for more than ten thousands years.
*linking sound*
...

while you avatar morph into a strange shape.

[Gehn, lord of ages]

Ah, good catch. I think the bucket will work fine (while there's no way that our avatars can revert it, I'm sure it would be IC possible), the falling bridge would be somewhat odd. Well, is it more important to have everything in the place stay the way it logically would, or to let the player have their own experience of the bridge?

Both. But if you are in a public cleft, you have to expect that you won't experience everything as if you were the only one there.

True. For a fully public Cleft, then this would probably have to stay broken. It's not that major, and there's no logical explanation that I can think of for why it would be fixed periodically (and fixed in such a way that it would just break again).

If there are 50 people in your Relto jumping in your Fissure, logically they will end up in your private cleft. If you enter the second speech code in the imager and you all use the book to the cleft. Remember that unlike normal book sharing, Yeesha doesn't close the book as soon as someone use it so more that one person could use it. Following the logic with links to private instances, everyone should end up in the same rainy cleft instance in which yeesha gives the second part of the speech and where you can't move until she finishes it. And because not everyone has the same computer, the same internet speed, what it might look like is:
Returning.
One final gift
*linking sound*
Something that no d'ni writer
*linking sound*
*linking sound*
*linking sound*
for more than ten thousands years.
*linking sound*
...

while you avatar morph into a strange shape.

Hmm, I see a few solutions
1. Allow it. If people really want to bring that many people, they're kind of inviting lag.
2. Have Yeesha's hologram disappear or close the book after one person links through.
3. Have it disappear or close the book after a couple people go through. Have several spots that it puts them in before freezing them (they link in to slightly different positions, or some of the shuffle around to make room), and then have it stop letting more people link when all these spots are filled.
4. Have the book only work for the person who has the instance, or only for the person who plugs in the code.

[Lehm]

If you wanted to do a public cleft or any of the original ages for that matter, you'd have to have all puzzles solved, with as little scripting as possible. Remember the doors in the city? Imagine every puzzle having that problem. Public spaces can't have puzzles. It'd be interesting if after one finishes an age when the visit it later they get sent to a public version instead. Unless they reset the book so they can do it over of coarse.

Jeff