Disingenuous - Veiled Insults

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Nalates
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Disingenuous - Veiled Insults

Post by Nalates » Sun Apr 18, 2010 12:35 pm

One can only imagine why I bring this one up... :roll:
Merriam-Webster wrote:Disingenuous:
Pronunciation: \ˌdis-in-ˈjen-yə-wəs, -yü-əs-\
Function: adjective
Date: 1655
: lacking in candor; also : giving a false appearance of simple frankness : calculating
Our community has a group of people that seem to resort to insults and then hide behind the idea of just being frank and accurately describing the situation.

I decided this is one of the problems I have had trouble defining and that is prevalent and growing in the community.

I challenge when I think that is what is going on. But, it can be hard to know. The person could be a child or one with a mental challenge.

Also, this level of insulting is subtle. It seems like making a moderator call and reporting it is over kill.

I think a response is needed, otherwise the one engaging in the behavior will think it is acceptable.

AS a forum member knowing when to respond is a challenge. One needs to consider whether the person is for real or not. I think it is important to know if they are a disabled or otherwise challenged person. We have people with Asperger's, ADD, Autism, and those with various impaired cognitive functions. Even in those cases, some response is needed.

Also there are groups of people that lack social skills. They may not realize how they come across. Software geeks and engineers tend to fall into that group. There is a theory that engineering schools being mostly male deprived students of opportunities to learn social skills picked up in schools with a more co-ed balanced schools. Some say that applies to software and other related schools. Whether that is true or not... our community might be used to support that idea. But, does one not challenge the socially inept? How will they ever learn.

Where in the process of challenging veiled insults a does a moderator come in?

Does one define such a thing in rules and guidelines? I would think so, if for no other reason than to provide a moderator a tool in the event they do step in.
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Re: Disingenuous - Veiled Insults

Post by Mac_Fife » Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:29 am

I'm going to respond on this thread, but this could equally have been put on any of a number of other threads in this section.

We seem to be creating a number of threads describing specific forms of what could be generalised as "abusiveness". That's fine to an extent, because working through an explanation of each helps to understand and recognise it. The "but" I'm coming to with this is that we need to be wary of suggesting that each of these needs to have it's own set of rules or guidelines. What I would be concerned about is that rules might become both numerous and complex. The issues then are that a) Forum members don't read them (which is a problem at the best of times), b) Those that do read them, may not always understand them, and c) Trying to follow through to determine which form of abuse (if any) is present will be additional work for moderators. It's probably far more workable just to class all forms of "abuse" together and allow moderators to apply judgement and discretion in how they deal with the matter.
Nalates wrote:I challenge when I think that is what is going on. But, it can be hard to know. The person could be a child or one with a mental challenge.
Or English isn't their native language, or they are ill, or suffering from stress, or many other things, as is later noted. It is impossible for the general forum membership to know personal details of every other member, and in fact many forums will actually forbid the sharing of such details via the forums. This means that it is difficult, and possibly dangerous, for individuals to make judgement calls, so challenging someone on their attitude might be OK so long as it's not openly confrontational, but if it extends over more than one exchange of post then that's a recipe for trouble, and ideally it should be by PM and not on the forum.
It seems like making a moderator call and reporting it is over kill.
I'd disagree - moderators see post reports, general members don't, so moderators will generally have more information about the posting habits of certain members, user perception of those posts etc., and quite likely PM feedback from the poster in response to any previous issues. This means they're better placed to make a judgement on whether action (possibly a PM to the poster asking them to edit their post) is warranted.
Also there are groups of people that lack social skills. They may not realize how they come across. Software geeks and engineers tend to fall into that group. [...] But, does one not challenge the socially inept? How will they ever learn.
Hmm, well, I could take that as a "veiled insult" as I fall into both those categories ;) , so be wary of using stereotypes as examples. As for the last point there, it relies on a couple of assumptions that could be considered arrogant; that one person is in a position to judge another as "inept" and that they are empowered to educate. You're right in so far as when you feel someone is "doing it wrong" that it should be pointed out, and possibly shown a better example to follow in future. The biggest single point I'd make here is never use a public forum to lecture someone. It invites others to join in and brings the discussion quality down. The secondary point is that, again in general (but not always), forum members will tend to respect a "telling off" from a moderator or admin but will resent it if the same thing comes from another member, although politely pointing out a rule breach is probably OK.

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Re: Disingenuous - Veiled Insults

Post by Nalates » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:08 pm

Excellent post and information, Mac_Fife.

I don’t mind the details and mini issues expanding the topic or becoming overly detailed and nitpicky. I think that reveals more of the issues. However, your point on how that distills into a final set of rules/guidelines is well taken. Much of the information does fit in an abuse category. As it condenses and I try to write compact and more concise material for the wiki we can pare it down.

On “…a moderator call and reporting it is over kill.” … each person is going to make their own call on when to report. Your point is valid. Moderators have more knowledge of what is happening. I assume you considering when to report as being a sooner than I would. How one describes when to report is probably a thread of its own, but I think we have enough stuff mixed in that covers it.

Your point on your possibly taking my reference to groups in categories as a veiled insult is well taken. People do often take offense if they see their self in the group. Yet, these shortcuts and types of profiling work for people trying to explain something so we keep using them. Mine could have been written better.

When one is being arrogant and when one is thought by others to be arrogant is where many of the issues turn heated. We have individual perceptions of what is and is not arrogant. Using our definitions of arrogance we deal with scenarios like; We are right, they are wrong, I told them… that’s a fact of the matter, no arrogance. But from the other side, they are neither wrong nor are we right and it is obvious arrogance. These are the situations where transference, projection, personal beliefs, known and unknown information come to full blossom. How people handle it is the issue and part of their character.

Not to challenge for fear of appearing arrogant doesn’t work, at least for me. I think letting behaviors that disrupt and or annoy is a poor idea. The idea here is to find ways to handle such matters that work better. Figuring out when annoyance is more than a personal issue is also tricky. Taking things to PM is definitely a good point. A one post-exchange limit is a good idea too.

I have found some people become extremely abusive in PM. Whether that is because they feel more hidden away and freer to cut lose, I can only speculate. But, we have no rules in regard to PM content… or have I forgotten?

Can one report abusive PM’s?

Does a site need to include a privacy point on whether PM’s can or cannot be sent to moderators with only the consent of one party?
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Re: Disingenuous - Veiled Insults

Post by Mac_Fife » Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:20 am

Nalates wrote:On “…a moderator call and reporting it is over kill.” … each person is going to make their own call on when to report. Your point is valid. Moderators have more knowledge of what is happening. I assume you considering when to report as being a sooner than I would. How one describes when to report is probably a thread of its own, but I think we have enough stuff mixed in that covers it.
I probably am advocating reporting posts sooner, particularly on busy forums, as a lot of "damage" can happen to a thread in a few hours.
Nalates wrote:I have found some people become extremely abusive in PM. Whether that is because they feel more hidden away and freer to cut lose, I can only speculate. But, we have no rules in regard to PM content… or have I forgotten?

Can one report abusive PM’s?

Does a site need to include a privacy point on whether PM’s can or cannot be sent to moderators with only the consent of one party?
Most forum software will allow PMs to be reported in much the same way as public posts are. I think PMs need to given a bit more freedom of expression otherwise there'd be no point in directing people to go to PM, but the terms of service you agree to when joining the forum are probably for use of the forums as a whole i.e. the forum rules apply to PMs as well as posts. But making an explicit statement on sharing PMs with moderators is possibly a good idea: As an expansion of that point, in many cases, if someone PMs a moderator with a moderation request (rather than reporting a post), then the PM is likely to be shared with the other moderators, a) so there is transparency in what's going on, and b) so another mod can take up the issue if necessary.

Yes, a thread on Post/PM reporting is probably worthwhile.

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Re: Disingenuous - Veiled Insults

Post by Nalates » Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:03 pm

Thread Spin Off
I started this thread: Forum Rules, PM's, and other related non-posts

Back to Topic
We have discussed the problems of moderation timing and the challenges with available moderation support on a forum. So, we can skip that and suffice to say early reporting is better.

In deciding when to report posts I tend toward doubting I understand them and giving them lots of slack. But, that is reserved for those I don’t know. Others, I may expect well established behavior from and that colors my response and decreases my tolerance. For some that means reporting sooner and others later, the more hopeless. Once the behavior displays I think it is time to change and try a new tactic.

I also often use other information sources to make decisions on the intent of their writing. Whether a poster has respect for their self and thus others is often revealed in off forum blogs and other public channels. I find that in the virtual worlds this is easier to do because people are extending their AV’s across multiple worlds and using the same AV name, which brings up other concepts and questions I put in the other thread.

The veiled insult and off hand derogatory comments are a problem. I tend to skim over most of them without reporting and I think others do also.

I also don’t see a reasonable way to identify the finessed insults and jabs with certainly. Recognizing them for what they are is more a matter of experience with a poster. Trying to create a rule to limit disingenuous comments and insults is probably counterproductive. I’m thinking, as suggested, the result from this is more a part of a section on abuse and disrespect.

The only concept I think may be consistently used is whether the post contributes any positive result or ideas. Failing that simple test and the inclusion of what one may consider derogatory or veiled, then report it.

The question then becomes whether the forum members leave it to the moderators or chip in their comments.
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Re: Disingenuous - Veiled Insults

Post by Mac_Fife » Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:10 pm

Nalates wrote:The only concept I think may be consistently used is whether the post contributes any positive result or ideas. Failing that simple test and the inclusion of what one may consider derogatory or veiled, then report it.
That's a valid issue that can color how moderation is handled, and can consequently be used to "game the system" to some extent: If a post contributes to the thread but has intertwined within it's wording insults or abuse to someone else it makes it really hard to moderate - It's hard to edit such a post to make it acceptable so your "choice" comes down to removing the entire post or leaving it be. If it can be caught before someone replies, it's easy enough to take it down and ask the poster to try again without the innuendo, but once it gets quoted or referenced in a reply it starts getting messy.

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Re: Disingenuous - Veiled Insults

Post by Nalates » Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:50 pm

I am splitting the thread. The posts moved to the new thread are less about how to recognize and deal with the problem than an individual's immediate issues. I don't see the positive contribution required on this forum in either the content or the direction.

See: viewtopic.php?f=46&t=393
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Re: Disingenuous - Veiled Insults

Post by Nalates » Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:59 am

This thread was opened too soon after a specific problem arose on another site. That was a mistake on my part.

I am suspending this thread for two weeks and its spin off thread.
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