Thinking about infrastructure

Open: Building Myst/Uru-style worlds and games on the OpenSim Hypergrid

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Re: Thinking about infrastructure

Post by admin » Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:44 pm

This Open Forums topic has been promoted to OpenURU.org Project status.

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Dot
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Re: Thinking about infrastructure

Post by Dot » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:57 pm

Thanks, JW! :D

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Re: Thinking about infrastructure

Post by Christian Walther » Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:34 pm

Maybe I should have noticed that earlier, but to me the title “Myst/Uru-Style Hypergrid & Open Simulators” seems at odds with the description “This is a project for those interested in Myst/Uru-style builds/ages in the wider community of Virtual Worlds. i.e., Team Fortress, Hypergrid (Second Life, Open Simulator and Blue Mars), and other non-Plasma systems.”

Perhaps I am mistaken, but to me, “hypergrid” in the wider sense, for lack of a better term*, means the whole system of software derived from and compatible with Second Life and the associated content and services. That includes OpenSimulator (so “& Open Simulators” is redundant, unless the slightly different spelling indicates a different meaning), but not Team Fortress or Blue Mars.

From skimming through this thread again, I’m not completely sure if the scope of this project is supposed to include non-“grid” worlds – the description and Tai'lahr’s list idea make it seem so, though much of the rest of the chatter seems pretty “grid”-specific. If it is, shouldn’t the title be something like “Myst/Uru-Style Hypergrid & Other Virtual Worlds”? And if it isn’t, the description is inaccurate.


* Is there a better term? Preferably one not easily confused with Hypergrid in the narrower sense, which as far as I’m informed is a technology to link several OpenSimulator-based grids together? Is there a common name for the system composed of Linden Labs and OpenSimulator and Imprudence and Hippo and Second Life and OSGrid, just as “the web” is the name for the system composed of Apache and IIS and Firefox and Safari and Wikipedia and Facebook? I’ve been looking for such a term ever since my first reluctant steps into that world a few weeks ago. Nalates? If there’s anyone here who can answer that, it’s you.

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Nalates
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Re: Thinking about infrastructure

Post by Nalates » Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:31 am

Hypergrid does have a specific meaning. But, the meaning is somewhat dependent on how it is used.

Open Simulator is often used to imply a set of worlds/shards... but it is actually the name of the software. Not all OS grids run the same software, e.g., RealXtend. The same communications protocol is used as is an Open Sim branched server and viewer.

Because of the current effort and standard due out this year to make the various grids compatible the provincial meaning of Hypergrid will change. As the standards start falling into place and becoming accepted the Hypergrid will expand and become more inclusive. At least that is my thinking on why Hypergrid is a more useful term. If one thinks of it as a set of worlds using specific software then it doesn't work as well. When one see it as I think it is intended by developers like IBM it refers to worlds using the same communication protocol. As time passes more and more server and client sides will come out. So, just as many types of software use the HTTP protocol so too will virtual worlds.

Blue Mars is not compatible with SL and OS grids at this time. But, building for BM and MOOU is similar. Also, SL and BM are going to go head-to-head as competitors. At this time I don't see BM making it. When SL pushes their graphics up with the release of their new viewer, due this quarter, they will be much more compatible. While the server and viewer for BM is not compatible much of the stuff people build for virtual worlds will be usable in both. I think as BM tries to be more competitive it will become important for them to join the Hypergrid. I could be wrong, but I think for them to survive they may have no choice. So, I've included it.

At this time I don't know if we have any builders interested in BM. BM would be more for GoW type builders than SL/OS type builders. So, I don't know if we will have any BM people hanging out here.

Team Fortress... I am watching the posts at MOUL were some fans are building in TF. I have not tried to build for TF. I have included them more to be inclusive and convey the idea that even while the section is primarily Open Sim others are welcome.

If there is interest, separate sections are possible. Until then... I see no reason to clutter the top levels. If TF and BM people show up here and want to help run a section... I'm sure it will be worked out.
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Re: Thinking about infrastructure

Post by Christian Walther » Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:20 pm

I’m having a hard time parsing answers to my questions out of your post – but that’s OK, I’ll just wait and see how things pan out.
Nalates wrote:When one see it as I think it is intended by developers like IBM it [Hypergrid] refers to worlds using the same communication protocol.
That’s the way I see it too. I didn’t use the word “protocol” but I should have.
Nalates wrote:Blue Mars is not compatible with SL and OS grids at this time. […] I think as BM tries to be more competitive it will become important for them to join the Hypergrid. I could be wrong, but I think for them to survive they may have no choice.
As a side note, I just can’t see that happening, but I’ll concede that you are more familiar with the matter than I am. Blue Mars is based on completely different software and I can’t see that suddenly becoming compatible with Second-Life-type software. How would a Blue Mars avatar be translated into a Second Life avatar, for instance? (Also, I’m tempted to ask “Why would someone like Blue Mars want to settle on an inferior standard?”, but I admit that my view of Second Life as inferior is based entirely on superficial and in this context largely irrelevant criteria.) Can you point me to a document that shows that Hypergrid is intended to become more general and encompass not only Second-Life-type worlds but also ones based on completely different engines? My search, admittedly cursory, has turned up nothing to that effect and I feel somewhat uninformed now.

Anyway, back on topic, we may disagree on whether Blue Mars will one day be covered by the term Hypergrid, but I think we can agree that Team Fortress and many other games and virtual worlds that house Myst/Uru-style builds never will.

So, from what I gather from your post, you’re basically saying “your understanding of the title is correct” as well as “the description is accurate”, right? That still leaves me with a conflict between the title and the description, and you’re not really addressing that.
Nalates wrote:even while the section is primarily Open Sim others are welcome
That neatly sums up your intention (and in that regard thanks for the clarification), but the issue I’m trying to raise is that I don’t see that intention clearly reflected in either the title or the description. Compared with this statement, I find the title too exclusive and the description too inclusive, to the point that they contradict each other.

You don’t address my question in the footnote, is that because it’s off-topic, because you don’t know an answer, or because the answer is “the term you’re looking for is ‘Hypergrid’” and you thought you had explained that sufficiently?

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Re: Thinking about infrastructure

Post by Nalates » Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:43 am

Christian Walther wrote: As a side note, I just can’t see that happening, […]
I suspect anyone that has worked with different games will be able to see the mountain of problems with the idea. I first started seeing the ‘interoperability’ idea in early 2009. It was in play well before then. I wrote one of my first posts about it on GoMa in March 09, MOOS - INTEROPERABILITY STANDARDS.

These links are in the post:
http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2009/02/other- ... tes-2.html
http://oxcgn.com/2008/09/21/world-of-wa ... -browsing/
http://gwynethllewelyn.net/2009/03/02/p ... standards/

The last of the three has the most technical information. It is also 17 good sized screens of info. Some of the other information is in nVidia whitepapers, which I can’t find links to, about using server side graphics render. This has lots of possibilities but I’m not sure how well their idea flies with game makers. But that would be a big step toward making things more compatible.

I tend to ramble in answers. Sorry. I read a post and form an idea and respond to that… which I know can be confusing to the reader.
Christian Walther wrote:So, from what I gather from your post, you’re basically saying “your understanding of the title is correct” as well as “the description is accurate”, right? That still leaves me with a conflict between the title and the description, and you’re not really addressing that.
On this point I was not clear. That is where your conflict of ideas likely comes from.

I included the non-SL/OS ones in the section as a catch all. I hung on to the Hypergrid label for search engine placement as I think that will draw more people. It’s my personal search engine thing. If I had not wanted that then Other Worlds would have been pertinent and probably more accurate.

I include BM for several reasons. I know that SL has plans and pressure to update their avatars. Blue Mars’ avatars are better. But when you have the whole rest of the world moving toward a standardized avatar, how long can they hold out? So, it does not seem as farfetched to me to include them as it may to you.

If I have a choice of using a marginally better av in a few worlds or a slightly lower quality av in thousands of worlds, I’ll spend more time wearing a more compatible av. I think the majority of people will do the same. Do I buy Blue-ray Disc or HD DVD? Whichever the most people go with is the one that wins. That could be BM’s av. But the best does not always win.

Fortress, Fallout, and Mars aren’t Hypergrid compatible. Whether they ever will be is doubtful and certainly debatable with 'NOT' having a good lead. They certainly don’t have the pressure to change that SL and BM do.

I agree the title is more ‘exclusive’ than inclusive. Until we have those that want to run a Blue Mars, TF or FO3 section… I chose to lump them in here. It’s not the best solution but for now it is practical. That does not make it the optimum solution, but it will work until we have someone that wants to split them off and care for them. Dot, Tai'lahr, and I are currently more interested in Hypergrid/OpenSim, so that is a starting place.

I think all these worlds will become more alike as time passes. If you disagree, I only have my opinion to convince you and there is no problem if you chose to believe otherwise. Only time is likely to change our minds.

I think as I do because I expect the building tools to start to standardize at some point. I expect avatars to standardize too. In the foreseeable future there will be professional tools like Blender, 3DMax, and Maya and simplified tools for… amateurs… novices… whatever. The professional tools pretty much all do the same thing with different user interfaces now. Novice tools do less and have simplified interfaces and fewer abilities but still have to accomplish the same things. Eventually this will all standardize. So, I don’t see any of these as all that different.

I missed answering the foot note question. Brain-fade from the time read until written. As far as I know there is no term comparable to ‘the web’ for hypergrid. Hypergrid has my vote for the term. That only leaves about 6 billion votes to go. The term Web 3 is used in some circles to describe the new 3D compatible web. But, nothing has general acceptance and a popular understanding of what is meant. Until this leaves the realm of the techies we probably won’t know.
Nalates
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Re: Thinking about infrastructure

Post by JWPlatt » Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:12 am

How are you folks doing?
Perfect speed is being there.

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Re: Thinking about infrastructure

Post by Mac_Fife » Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:30 am

OpenURU.org may have lost a week, but everyone else is catching up on two lost years ;)
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Re: Thinking about infrastructure

Post by Dot » Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:32 am

During the weekend, the Devokan team gets a chance to meet in world and create structure -- whether in OSgrid (building the islands) or in SL, or in Uru (setting up hoods, welcoming new players, what-have-you).

And I was a bit discouraged -- though nowhere near what JW must have felt like!

I don't think we can turn the clock back and repeat the discussions that have taken place but have gone. For example, I write in place, so there is no back-up unfortunately.

What I'd like to suggest is that we move on from here, basing posts on what each of us have assimilated from last week's discussions.

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Re: Thinking about infrastructure

Post by Nalates » Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:04 pm

I agree with Dot...

I do write offline in Word, mostly, but only keep those posts I think I can reuse or have some other reason to keep. As I come across any that I kept I'll report them.

This last week I've think we have been mostly in AGAIN. What fun :)

I set up the GoC Bevin. I'm bummed it seldom shows up in the Nexus list (It is public). Anyone know what basis the list uses for selecting display?
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