New Information on Open Source

Open: Proposal To Open Source Uru

Moderator: Open Source Project Managers

Post Reply
User avatar
Nalates
Member
Posts: 437
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:50 pm

New Information on Open Source

Post by Nalates » Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:30 pm

Restored post: New Information on Open Source
News 10.2.2010 um 18:43 Nalates


Rand was in MOULagain and some people got to talk with him. There is a chat log posted by Paradox a couple of posts down. (There is a nice chat log formatter here.)

GPNMilano, summarized what she heard in a post on GoW: Rand's visit and news for Age Creators

Along about 23:22 in the log Rand is talking about age building for open source peeps.

The idea that Rand seems to have is that fan ages will be loaded to the Cyan server before the code gets released. The problems with that are pointed out in the thread. Fan created ages are made for CC not MOUL. So, a Drizzle tab for conversion from CC to MOUL format would be needed and Cyan will have a Drizzle support conundrum.

There is so much we still don't know about the details of Rand's thinking. But as it looks now the barrier for fans to build still remains high. Code is still on the Cyan Soon schedule. Aloys points out that some of this sounds like a different road than what we may have been anticipating. I' having a similar feeling.

I originally thought of open source giving fans the ability to run shards of their own. Some license would be needed to use Cyan content, the ages, on a shard.

I'm now wondering if the scaling of MOUL game servers would mean fan servers would just connect to a Cyan parent shard... the Cyan content would be in Cyan game servers and use of Cyan content would be by connecting to those. I was thinking of the Cyan data servers as a source file repository that shard operators downloaded a copy from for serving out on their shard... I'm still thinking about how this might work and whether I have misunderstood how Rand envisions open source.
Nalates
GoW, GoMa and GoA apprentice - Guildmaster GoC - SL = Nalates Urriah

User avatar
Mac_Fife
Member
Posts: 1229
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 12:38 am
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Re: New Information on Open Source

Post by Mac_Fife » Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:36 pm

Restored post: Open Source • Re: New Information on Open Source
Feed 10.2.2010 um 22:00 Mac_Fife

Nalates wrote:There is so much we still don't know about the details of Rand's thinking. But as it looks now the barrier for fans to build still remains high. Code is still on the Cyan Soon schedule. Aloys points out that some of this sounds like a different road than what we may have been anticipating. I' having a similar feeling.
I'm not sure on that: I think what we're seeing, rather than being "a different road" is actually just a series of staging posts along the same road. Kind of, an incremental way towards the OS vision while Cyan are still having to struggle with time and resources.

Releasing MOULagain makes sense to me. It's a way to check that they code they were holding still runs and to identify what bugs exist. It may well become a platform for testing that the OS release code is fit to hand over. It allows, potentially, some development of tools that may be necessary, as Nalates post indicates, to migrate fan created content into the MOUL environment.

Idon't think it's a move away from OS (although I can see why people will think that) - just "little steps".
Mac_Fife
OpenUru.org wiki wrangler

User avatar
Nalates
Member
Posts: 437
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:50 pm

Re: New Information on Open Source

Post by Nalates » Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:38 pm

Restored post: Open Source • Re: New Information on Open Source
Feed 11.2.2010 um 05:03 Nalates


You may well be right.

I am not saying Rand is changing direction, as I think Aloys thinks, as much as we may have a different idea of how we expect it to be than Rand does. But... only time will tell.
Nalates
GoW, GoMa and GoA apprentice - Guildmaster GoC - SL = Nalates Urriah

User avatar
Mac_Fife
Member
Posts: 1229
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 12:38 am
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Re: New Information on Open Source

Post by Mac_Fife » Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:41 pm

Restored post: Open Source • Re: New Information on Open Source
Feed 11.2.2010 um 09:58 Mac_Fife


You make an important distinction there, regarding Rand's thoughts. I don't know how much you can read into that; Rand has mis-quoted things before, leading to confusion, so we'll just have to wait and see what actually transpires. It feels to me like we're getting a little bit of everything, just not all at once: We've now got (almost) a Cyan run MO:UL shard, which I don't think anyone was really expecting given the recent climate; If Rand's words are to be taken at face value, we may soon(ish) see that change into MORE or something very similar to that concept, maybe just a little less formal; Longer term, Open Source is still the stated objective.

It would maybe settle concerns if Cyan could state a roadmap of some sort. I know they can't put realistic timescales on something that essentially depends on spare time and voluntary effort, but just listing the milestones would give us all a better picture. On the other hand, I guess that might just lead to demands from fans to know how close Cyan are to achieving the next milestone, and pretty soon "milestone" becomes "millstone" :? .
Mac_Fife
OpenUru.org wiki wrangler

User avatar
Nalates
Member
Posts: 437
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:50 pm

Re: New Information on Open Source

Post by Nalates » Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:58 pm

Restored post: Open Source • Re: New Information on Open Source
Feed 11.2.2010 um 19:36 Nalates


Cyan seems to have thick skin when it comes to fan demands. :) It doesn't seem to hurt their feelings, at least I hope not. They go their own way on their own time line. At best we may influence them in some ways.

A Cyan run game server is a great surprise! Now a road map would be excellent.

I want to see the licenses for open source. I think those will have a big effect on the Hypergrid discussions. Several in SL/OS grids are considering how to link from AGAIN to the OS/SL Myst Style builds.

If you have not seen Crux Isle in SL, you should take the time to check it out. I think it is a wonderful example of a fan age and puzzle. Plus it has a FCAL. I think it has influenced Dot to consider getting one for Paislee and her use in OSGrid. I'm very impressed with the style of story and puzzles.
Nalates
GoW, GoMa and GoA apprentice - Guildmaster GoC - SL = Nalates Urriah

Tai'lahr
Member
Posts: 233
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2008 6:33 pm

Re: New Information on Open Source

Post by Tai'lahr » Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:59 pm

Just my opinion, but I don't think anything Rand says in casual chat should be taken too literally. Cyan has a reputation for being cautious in their statements and keeping expectations realistic; Rand is the exception to the rule. Rand expresses his visions for the future which is a good thing because anything someone can visualize can be made to happen. But, the fact that he says, "I don't understand all the magic - i just enjoy it" tells us that it's up to others to make his visions reality.

My impression of the roadmap, now:
Cyan brought back Uru on their own server for several reasons, not the least of which was just because they finally could. Also, it's just a good place to start - allowing for several things including looking at what works & doesn't work in the code and giving the fans a place to gather and begin making their plans.

The next step is to release the code and allow licensed shards. The fans will begin finding bug fixes and a fan-run group (GoW and/or GoMa and/or... ?) will use a licensed shard to review player-created ages and submit the best ones to Cyan for inclusion in their version of Uru.

And, this Hypergrid project that we're working on here will lead to creation of easy to use UCC tools. :D

User avatar
Nalates
Member
Posts: 437
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:50 pm

Re: New Information on Open Source

Post by Nalates » Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:11 am

We have more information now. Robert the Rebuilder and Chogon have been emailing. Things are getting more specific. I posted a response at MOUL as that is where it came up. They were working toward arriving at a consensus, so... I stayed out of the thread rather than jinx it. :) R the R came to the type of consensus I used in the GoC to get things done... get a feel and idea of where folks were and then go with it. I know that is technically not a consensus as most think of it. But it moves things ahead and works.

However the meat of the process I posted is: (reference)
Nat @ MOUL wrote:Whilyam and several others have made the point that if something goes sideways with Cyan, we can lose MOULagain. I think that is just obvious.

I suspect the MOULagain servers are cheap enough and donations plentiful, so it is unlikely that MOULagain will go down this year. MQO is feeding Cyan so it should be ok. But, what's in the future?

Once we have licenses... the game can survive as long as fans care to support it. Other things like server, client, and plug-in source are just added bonuses.

I am baffled that anyone thinks Cyan will return to writing Myst-Uru ages any time in the foreseeable future. Cyan says they don't plan to, are busy with other projects, are having trouble even getting time to do the things needed to get to open source, and it took two years to get a server up. Sudre sets it out pretty much as I see it.

Chogon has somewhat outlined what has to be done to get ages into MOULagain and puts that out as the next step. My first thought on reading that was, 'Bummer.' It seems rather than give us the existing 3DMax plug-ins source, they want to update them from an older 3DMax to the latest 3DMax. I can read lots into that... but mostly I hear DELAY in getting the plug-ins. (Chogon in reply to a Robert the Rebuilder email.) It seems a better next step is getting fans working on the code.

Later in the thread (reference) Aloys voices a concern similar to mine.
Aloys @ GoW wrote:
Robert The Rebuilder wrote:(...) because Mark said:
the next goal should be to get one or more of the fan created content on the MOULagain servers. To me, that would show the most promising thing about the entire project.
we gotta leave servers for later. So, I put you down for plug-in binaries.
To be honnest that quote has me a little worried: while it does make some sense, it also seems to me like Cyan still needs some motivation to move the project forward.. Do they not believe in us? Have they not seen what we have done for the past couple years? I might be reading too much into this though.

There is something in Cyan/Rand/Chogon’s conceptualization of this process going toward open source that is drastically different than ours. This may be what has Whilyam’s spidey sense going off. It worries me.

When Chogon writes, “To me, that would show the most promising thing about the entire project.” I start to wonder about who needs to be shown? The fans? I don’t think so. New players? May be. But then wouldn’t giving us the plug-in source, even if parts were ripped out, produce a faster means of getting fan ages into MOULagain? Having lots of people working on it should create results faster than having a few people occasionally working on it at Cyan. Chogon’s thinking baffles and alarms me.

However, Chogon later replied to Robert the Rebuilder and that explains much of what seems off direction. See GoW post. His response there is that a paying customer has a need for the updated Plasma plug-in for the latest 3DMax. That explains why this is a practical and logical next step. I can stop worrying. Having working binaries we can use, even if for 3DMax, is a step forward. It also explains why we would get binaries over source. And why it is the NEXT step. He also re-states they intend to provide source. But then we apparently have those pesky 3rd party proprietary parts that need removal and other cleanup work delaying source release. :(

There is progress but some things are going to take more time. I see no way to predict a timeline. What I do see is those using 3DMax will be creating the first fan ages that appear on MOULagain.
...3 deep quotes limit?
Last edited by JWPlatt on Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixed nested quote
Nalates
GoW, GoMa and GoA apprentice - Guildmaster GoC - SL = Nalates Urriah

User avatar
JWPlatt
Member
Posts: 1100
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 7:32 pm
Location: Everywhere, all at once

Re: New Information on Open Source

Post by JWPlatt » Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:35 am

Now it's a 5-deep limit. 8-)

I just posted to that thread:
JWPlatt wrote:
Nalates wrote:Chogon later replied to Robert the Rebuilder and that explains much of what seems off direction. See GoW post. His response there is that a paying customer has a need for the updated Plasma plug-in for the latest 3DMax.
What he wrote was "We do have a requirement for a different project (MagiQuest Online) to update the plugins to the latest 3ds max." There's a difference. Not that it matters to your ends, but the difference is [Cyan] has a requirement, meaning internal and as a result of external demands, not that the customer (CK/MagiQuest) has a need for the plug-ins for their own use. The last time I stepped into this issue was to clarify that CK is not involved with or attempting to restrict Cyan's open source plans. This is similar and just to say it's still all Cyan. It makes a lot of sense to wait until something essentially pays for itself and can be scheduled with the requirements of other work, especially when you can see that train coming (to use Rand's metaphor), rather than doing it on your own time when time is precious. We (the Cyan fan community) don't generally know what Cyan has in its planner. Cyan does. How often do things make more sense once the facts are known (or revealed) than they did while they were undergoing speculation? It's easier to wait when you know the train schedule than it is when you don't - hence the speculation. It's only natural.
http://mystonline.com/forums/viewtopic. ... 767#323767
Perfect speed is being there.

User avatar
Nalates
Member
Posts: 437
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:50 pm

Re: New Information on Open Source

Post by Nalates » Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:07 pm

That is on the subtle side, but the difference is significant. Thanks for correcting me.
Nalates
GoW, GoMa and GoA apprentice - Guildmaster GoC - SL = Nalates Urriah

Post Reply

Return to “OpenUru”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest