Where to Begin (The Game)

[Lehm]

Well the dirt parking lot is pretty much the same idea as the town just different location. However a dirt lot would be far easier to create...but on the other hand would probably be less interesting to walk though. As for the giving of relto books...if the cleft is returned to the start, relto is the reward. So I don't think there's a need to do that. Also I think there's a better way to determine who gets sent to a possible multiplayer version of cleft. Many people have brought up creating a party system where anyone in a party would end up in the same age instances. If its determined by how close someone is to me when going to the cleft, what if I'm wanting to go alone and then at the last second someone runs up near me. It needs to be more controlled.

Jeff

[Gehn, lord of ages]

Well the dirt parking lot is pretty much the same idea as the town just different location. However a dirt lot would be far easier to create...but on the other hand would probably be less interesting to walk though.

True. The parking lot is intentionally boring (in a mysterious way, of course), as it's just intended as a place to get help and to focus people on going to the Cleft (which is interesting enough to walk through).

As for the giving of relto books...if the cleft is returned to the start, relto is the reward. So I don't think there's a need to do that.

The thing is, there are people who for various reasons do not want to have to go through the whole journey first. They might be taking a stand against Yeesha-magic, or they might want to simply get in quickly, or something like that. We don't want to alienate or annoy these people, so a quicker way to get a Relto book would be nice. The Cleft should still be the start of the Journey, so they won't get the pillars (for Teledahn, Kadish Tolesa, and the other ABM Ages).We also do want to encourage people to go through the Cleft first (and not accidentally go off to Relto before it was necessary), so we could put IC signs or notes informing people to use them only as a last resort (I think I'm liking the "table with books" option - they can immediately get a book if they really want one, or are so desperate to get help, but it's clear that they are encouraged to go through without picking one up).

Also I think there's a better way to determine who gets sent to a possible multiplayer version of cleft. Many people have brought up creating a party system where anyone in a party would end up in the same age instances. If its determined by how close someone is to me when going to the cleft, what if I'm wanting to go alone and then at the last second someone runs up near me. It needs to be more controlled.

Yes, that is the problem with the radius idea (although you could always return back to the parking lot and try again - I agree that this would be annoying, though). The problem is making a realistic and intuitive way to figure out which people want to go together, while minimizing any mistakes. The radius idea is fairly realistic (you aren't selecting people off a screen or something), and it's somewhat intuitive (if you are going somewhere with someone, you'd probably walk with them - people going alone would walk alone). It can make mistakes, though, in both directions (either leaving off people who walk too far apart, or bringing together people who just happen to walk close to each other). These could be reduced by OOC explanations (from whatever helpful people decide to sit around at the parking lot to help new players, or from introduction videos), or even semi-IC tips (an experienced person guiding new players could tell them all to "stay close" while they walked to the Cleft, for example). Still...

Can we think of something better? Most of the ideas I have would involve animating a bunch of cars (so you can drive there together, or just by yourself), which would be overkill and rather difficult.
- Perhaps a bus that comes (only one simpler vehicle to animate, and less intensive than other ideas) at regular intervals? If you all go on the same bus, you end up in the same instance of the Cleft. People wanting to go alone could just walk. The signs would state that groups were advised to wait for the bus (for an explained or not explained reason). Perhaps groups would also be able to walk over using the radius idea (but with a very small radius, so people wouldn't accidentally get stuck together). This again could be explained or not explained.
- Some kind of place selling or giving away ribbons or tags or something, and groups are told to get the same color? Sort of arbitrary...

[Mac_Fife]

Yes, that is the problem with the radius idea...
[snip]
Can we think of something better?...
[snip]
- Some kind of place selling or giving away ribbons or tags or something, and groups are told to get the same color? Sort of arbitrary...

Having a "token" of some sort that a player can choose to pick up to indicate their intent to go with a group is the most obvious mechanism, but you need to make sure that the player understands that they are making a choice and are aware of the options - A box of pin badges with instructions on the inside of the lid, a book with tear off tickets inside. But the difficulty I see is how you explain it in an IC way, and still allow people to progress without taking a token (single player mode). Or you force everyone to take a token of some sort and have one type that indicates you don't want to travel in group, and come up with some story for why you can't leave the lot without a token (a "Blazing Saddles" quote springs to mind: "Badges? We don't need no steenking badges" ).

@Gehn: Are you going to add your new thoughts to the Gloa Plan wiki article?

[Lehm]

Not everything has to have an IC explanation...this is a video game. A simple party system as part of the hud will suffice I think. And probably far easier to implement.

[Tweek]

Personally there's only really 2 ways that would work for me.

- The original starting of the game, where we are at the Cleft, single player etc (ala Prologue/ABM)

or

- Starting at the Cleft, albeit a public Cleft, same basic mechanism, puzzles just reworked for multiplayer.

An addition to both of these would be the ability to climb down into the volcano and take the walk into D'ni instead of the Relto way.

[Gehn, lord of ages]

Having a "token" of some sort that a player can choose to pick up to indicate their intent to go with a group is the most obvious mechanism, but you need to make sure that the player understands that they are making a choice and are aware of the options - A box of pin badges with instructions on the inside of the lid, a book with tear off tickets inside. But the difficulty I see is how you explain it in an IC way, and still allow people to progress without taking a token (single player mode). Or you force everyone to take a token of some sort and have one type that indicates you don't want to travel in group, and come up with some story for why you can't leave the lot without a token (a "Blazing Saddles" quote springs to mind: "Badges? We don't need no steenking badges" ).

Exactly. Picking an item is rather foolproof, but is hard to explain (to emphasize it clearly enough so that new players can figure it out, but to have it unobtrusive and logical IC). The radius idea has the opposite problem. It's more intuitive (you know that if you walk next to someone else, that you will arrive together) and can be explained IC (it's relying on everyone else being Schrodinger's cats - since you can't tell for sure what they were doing at the time, they could easily have turned back or rested or something and just never happened to arrive while you were there), but has so many ways it can make mistakes. The bus idea solves both problems (it's intuitive that if you get on a bus with a group, you'll arrive with them - there's a clearly defined in-the-bus/group and out-of-the-bus/group that should reduce mistakes), but has its own problems (mostly the question of why buses keep on arriving to drive in between the two spots). Perhaps some kind of npc guide could be used instead of a bus (a sign would tell groups to wait at a certain place for a guide to come [tour guide? an NPC "explorer"?] - guides would come at somewhat regular intervals and would quickly tell the group to stay close and follow them [perhaps with several different speeches (text based, probably) for different sized groups] - lone players could go off at any time [friendly explorers could explain this, and it would be implied in the signs and notes and such])?

Not everything has to have an IC explanation...this is a video game. A simple party system as part of the hud will suffice I think. And probably far easier to implement.

Uru focuses a lot on IC explanations, though, so I would be rather careful before implementing an OOC solution. If there was a very clear and intuitive (since it needs to be readily apparent to new players) OOC interface idea for this, I would definitely consider it. I would still prefer an IC solution, though.

@Gehn: Are you going to add your new thoughts to the Gloa Plan wiki article?

I really should. I'll do it when I have time.

[Mac_Fife]

There are a couple of problems I have with virtually all of these multi-player start scenarios:

• The first is the number of players. If you have a smallish shard, say 200 subscribers then, apart from when the shard first starts up, you're pretty unlikley to actually encounter another player who happens to want to start a new game/new avvie at around the same time as you, which could make the whole idea of a multi-player start a bit of a moot point On the other hand, if you have a bigger shard, with maybe 1000 or more subscribers then you have the opposite problem at start up with the collection point getting mobbed and lagged out. So you instance once the start point has more than, say 20 players. But you could still end up with someone getting dropped into an instance by themsleves, yet they might "know" other people are also joining the game. That might be OK if everyone understands the limitations of MMO games, but a lot of newbies take time to get their heads round instancing, and don't understand what's happening.
• How do you explain people suddenly appearing out of nowhere in the desert, before linking is explained or available? Unlike something like WoW which is pure fantasy and anything can be explained as "it's just magic", Myst/URU has always been fantasy with an air of real world believability, and the Cleft/desert, as a "surface" location, has to be more believable than anywhere else.

I have to say that on the whole, I'm a lot more comfortable with the single player start and allowing the multiplayer element to be introduced once the linking concept has been established, as it seems to make the whole thing more explicable. Besides, I always felt like the Cleft was a "training level" for newbies to allow them to discover how things worked, so making a multi-player Cleft at the start of the game seems to present a risk of defeating that aim (assuming it was Cyan's aim).

[realXCV]

That sends the beginning back to A) The cleft or B) Relto. An extra step would be even more useless especially if you're going to see it only once.

I don't have any problem with A but I prefer B. At one book of a multiplayer age, at one book of the cleft (training age).

I'm a lot more comfortable with the single player start and allowing the multiplayer element to be introduced once the linking concept has been established, as it seems to make the whole thing more explicable.

"You click on the picture in the book and then you are transported to another age".
That's the easy part.
Then you have to explain the instances and all the public/private multiplayer/singleplayer concept.

[Lehm]

Okay did some thinking and perhaps there is a compromise on the party system. What if everyone gets some kind of token suggested before, perhaps you pick it up that into town/lot/place that's been suggested. But this token doesn't automatically take you to a multiplayer cleft. It would become an icon on your hud just like the relto book. When you want to join someone's party you offer your token just like the relto book. The other person is then free to accept. If he does you two are put into the same party and whenever one goes to an instanced age...the other will go to the same instanced age. No more link sharing. I think this idea is a least consistant with what Cyan as already done. It's a hud option with an IC explanation...just like the relto book.

And realXCV why would you only see the proposed intro area once? I'd imagine you'd be able to link back to it. In fact I think it'd be a great place for the GoG if they were willing. Right now you have to go find them. Wouldn't it make more sense to have them at the beginning, were beginners need them most?

[Mac_Fife]

What if everyone gets some kind of token suggested before, perhaps you pick it up that into town/lot/place that's been suggested. But this token doesn't automatically take you to a multiplayer cleft. It would become an icon on your hud just like the relto book. When you want to join someone's party you offer your token just like the relto book. The other person is then free to accept.

I think that'd work. But you wouldn't need the token at all since the use of the icon would be elective anyway, so even simpler (at least from a player perspective - I expect that there are player state variables to be updated in the database whatever option is chosen).

And realXCV why would you only see the proposed intro area once? I'd imagine you'd be able to link back to it. In fact I think it'd be a great place for the GoG if they were willing. Right now you have to go find them. Wouldn't it make more sense to have them at the beginning, were beginners need them most?

The GoG manning a "reception area" was mentioned a while back (probably by me ). It seems like a reasonable idea, possibly even essential, but there's no reason to suspect that a GoG member would be any easier to find at a new area than they were in GoG 'hood (although I'll grant that new players might meet them sooner that way). I just don't think there were enough Greeters to go round. I'd agree with realXCV: The intro area will mainly get used only when you start a new avvie.

I'm sure that Cyan have deliberated over many of the things we're discussing here. I'm sure they would have wanted to get players interacting as quickly as possible. It'd be really useful if we had the benefit of some of Cyan's insight on why the game begins the way it does - I'm convinced there's logic and reason behind it. That's not to say that the fans can't come up with a better option