Community Project: The Great Shaft

[GPNMilano]

This and this are what I'd like to go back to. I don't know exactly why Cyan de-awesomeified the Cavern walls and Lake imagery rather than investing in higher-quality versions of the stuff in these shots, because these are far more interesting IMO than what we have right now.

(I'd post a still from the MOUL intro as well, but stills don't seem to be as easy to visually interpret as the actual video clip... suffice it to say, I think doing these images up with better-quality textures, skydomes, and full-on 3D models of Ae'Gura would be easy enough to do, especially since some of the texture-based improvements from the EoA version of Plasma were back-ported for MOUL.

I agree with the second version which I could put together right now, by just swapping the two images out in PRPExplorer. But I disagree with the first. Hear me out though. The cavern walls should definitely be changed. But remember, they look the way they do now because of the amount of light the lake is giving off. For those to images you just shown the lake would need to be at its fullest light. (Or, at least a lot fuller than it is now.) I would suggest using those images as an end point to the lake lighting efforts, once the pellet bugs are ironed out. My problem with the first one all comes back to the fact that from that image, the city looks much closer than it ought to be, cutting down the size of the cavern in general. This is generally going to be the problem if you have a background that's painted on a skydome with your city on it. None of the models in Uru do this for a variety of reasons, this being a major one. With "fake" models, sometimes they're just planes with another background texture on them, other times they're fully realized ground/island/city models with a non-descript texture being used, by controlling their size, you can control the distance between the avatar and them, especially if you have the ground between them, fade off because of darkness. What I would advocate, is your suggestion, of using those 3d models, to enlarge the city to a greater specification, it is quite small where it currently is, so that it looks bigger, but not closer. Then using a skydome picture for the background, like you have in the second picture behind the Arch. Which IMO is perfect, and shouldn't change. It doesn't really give any clue as to how far away the hoods are in the back ground while at the same time blending in nicely with the surrounding 3Dmodels. But again, that should mainly be a "fully lit cavern" along with changing the color of the lake.

[BladeLakem]

I like this idea. There has always needed to be a non-Yeesha way into the Cavern.

However, I'd rather not see the current version of the Cleft be overwritten with a multiplayer one. Rather, I'd like to see both options available. The Journey Cleft could be available just as it is now in MOUL - in Relto. And then you get your Journey pillars from that version of the Cleft.

[TomahnaGuy]

Unless you have it so that like in MOUL you start on Relto if you want the Yeesha journey or start in the Cleft if you want the D'ni version. Thus elminating need for the cleft in both occasions. Then you could just visit the cleft on your return Yeesha journey.

As for the lake lighting - I like the idea that the Cavern will get brighter, and actually, I prefer the non-modelled background version in Ae'Gura compared to the modelled one and so it should only light the backdrop of the cavern up when you drop pellets.

As for getting down the tunnels, how would the lava passage be done?

[Alahmnat]

I like this idea. There has always needed to be a non-Yeesha way into the Cavern.

However, I'd rather not see the current version of the Cleft be overwritten with a multiplayer one. Rather, I'd like to see both options available. The Journey Cleft could be available just as it is now in MOUL - in Relto. And then you get your Journey pillars from that version of the Cleft.

That was largely the plan, only you'd get to the Journey Cleft through a new Bahro Stone in the Great Shaft, and acquire Relto the old-fashioned way .

On the concept for the Descent (and particularly the lava chamber/Southern Gate), I've got some design ideas in my head, and sort of written down story-mode-like... I'll see if I can get 'em moved into this thread tonight, since the latest bout of snow here in Spokane has rendered my dinky rear-wheel-drive S-10 pickup immobile .

[walts]

All I can say is you guys are AWESOME!

I had some concerns about the preservation of the D'ni saga when Chogon announced the Open Sourcing initiative, but my faith in the core of talented people committed to the D'ni canon is obviously justified. I'm eager to help in any ways that I can - my talents are more along the ideas of testing, networks (the computer kind) and administration rather than actual coding, but I'm here and willing to help.

Just a matter of opinion - I really liked the initial version of starting out in the desert and finding one's way down to the cavern. I was a little confused and disapponted at first with the whole Yeesha/Zandi bit, since I had read the books by then and I spent a lot of time trying to get through/over the fence around the volcano looking for the tunnel entrance before I caught on.

I really like the idea of being able to follow Anna and Gehn/Atrus in their journeys to D'ni. Could we not have it both ways? The player always starts in the desert, and then can choose/blunder into either the tunnels or Yeesha's journey cloths.

By the way, where did the elevators come from? IIRC the shaft was not entirely finished when the earthquake came. The rescue of Veovis by Atrus was done using some sort of temporary construction equipment, not a finished permanent elevator? Also it would be so cool to be able to explore the inner parts of one of the great excavators!

Anyway, thanks to all of you for your enthusiasm and the great ideas!

Walt

[Mac_Fife]

... I spent a lot of time trying to get through/over the fence around the volcano looking for the tunnel entrance before I caught on.

Me too. I thought the fence was some kind of challenge. And it was ages before I looked behind the sign at the start point for a journey cloth.

[Alahmnat]

Thanks for the kind words, Walt.

Just a matter of opinion - I really liked the initial version of starting out in the desert and finding one's way down to the cavern. I was a little confused and disapponted at first with the whole Yeesha/Zandi bit, since I had read the books by then and I spent a lot of time trying to get through/over the fence around the volcano looking for the tunnel entrance before I caught on.

I really like the idea of being able to follow Anna and Gehn/Atrus in their journeys to D'ni. Could we not have it both ways? The player always starts in the desert, and then can choose/blunder into either the tunnels or Yeesha's journey cloths.

I think Tweek's idea was more along these lines, but I'm probably going to remain fairly stubborn and adamant about giving the player a KI before they wander too far afield, and the most logical place to do this would be the Eder Tomahn at the top of the Great Shaft (seems more likely to have a KI dispenser there than having one hauled all the way out to the Cleft, anyway ). I don't know if there's a way to perfectly balance the availability of both choices given the prerequisites players really need to have before really getting into the meat of the game... giving players equal access to Relto and the Shaft means a fair number of players will still be blundering around without a KI, and I really can't over-stress how bad that is from a game design standpoint, given how vital the thing is to most game functions.

I wonder if there is any more prominent place to put the access point to the "Journey Cleft" where Yeesha's stuff and a player's Relto Book can be found. I suggested having a Bahro Stone next to Watson's journal in the Shaft because it seemed like a nice little gameplay- and story-oriented place to put it, but maybe that's not the most obvious place. I'm open to suggestions, in any case.

By the way, where did the elevators come from? IIRC the shaft was not entirely finished when the earthquake came. The rescue of Veovis by Atrus was done using some sort of temporary construction equipment, not a finished permanent elevator? Also it would be so cool to be able to explore the inner parts of one of the great excavators!

I've always kind of wondered about that too. Of course, the Great Shaft in Uru and EoA doesn't really bear much resemblance to the Great Shaft in BoA or BoT (both of which also have their own bizarrely different descriptions of the structure), so it's possible that the Shaft underwent a revision for the purposes of better gameplay... I don't think even I would be willing to spend that much time walking down the long way, or risk my lunch doing so from all the spinning . I think Cyan's only saving grace in this is the brief one-line mention in BoT after the quakes during construction that the Shaft would be re-built, completed, and then sealed. That gives them a fair amount of license to do whatever they need to, and still be able to call it "completed after the quakes".

I'd also like to see if there's a way to stick one of the excavators or digging machines into the Descent somewhere... I'm just not entirely sure where to put it, since the top of the Shaft is pretty much a known entity at this point... maybe we could expand the little side room in the node above the Shaft and stick something (or several somethings) in there. More rumination will be required, I think.

Hopefully I'll be back before too long with my promised Descent ideas... still working on converting those from story-time mode to fleshed out descriptions.

[The stranger]

I also got some very detailed suggestions for the great shaft, and mostly all of the side choosing stuff in uru. I can post them, if you are interested.

[Alahmnat]

By all means, Stranger .

Now, for my rambly description of the Descent:

What follows is my take on how the Descent should be designed. I am open to input and suggestions on this, so please don't take my word as law here.

The Descent starts in the Volcano caldera, and is functionally/visually identical to EoA in this respect. If at all possible, I'd like to pull the assets from EoA directly to maintain consistency, but this may not be possible; we'll have to see what Cyan says. The only change I may suggest making is replacing the ladder with a slope, just to reduce the potential for visual bottlenecks, but that's a relatively minor concern in the long run.


Anything highlighted in red is content I want to include in the completed Descent.

The short cave and initial D'ni-created tunnel section will also be identical to EoA, again to maintain consistency. The only difference is the condition of the collapsed wall that leads into the Node just before the Great Shaft. This wall, as noted before, will be intact, and the Node will only be accessible via the Nexus once players acquire their KI in the (again identical to EoA) Eder Tomahn.

The Shaft itself will again be largely identical to the Shaft in EoA, although without the support struts that span the inner spaces, and probably a bit less illumination as a result. The Eder Tomahn half-way down the Shaft will still have Watson's journal in it, and beside it will be a Bahro Stone that will send players to the "Journey Cleft", a private Cleft instance with Yeesha's Journey puzzles intact.

The floor of the Shaft, at this time, cannot be raised, because at present it presents too great a possibility for trapping new players in the Shaft and largely serves no purpose, as turning the fan system on and off (and thus sealing/unsealing Node doors) in the Eder Tomahn down there seems like a doubly good way to cheese off anyone in the Descent.

The Descent will follow the D'ni Path pretty exclusively until players reach the point marked "Cave-in" on the map above. There are a couple of branches along the way where extra nodes are located. Since these are dead-ends, I see no problem leaving them intact and adding to the atmosphere/realism of the journey. There are also a few cave systems that branch off from the Nodes, which I've elected not to include simply because caves are harder to build than Nodes and Path segments (which can easily be copy/pasted for construction purposes), and I don't want people wandering too far off course this early on... the training wheels will probably come off a bit more as players continue downward. These un-included segments can still be hinted at, and possibly added later, through the use of locked Node doors.

At the cave-in point, the Descent takes its major detour through a natural cave system, which needs to cross over the D'ni path (spatially, not necessarily visually) and continue on the opposite side. There's a bit more open exploration here, but ultimately only one way out. There's a bit of highlighting that ends before making it to a Node toward the left side of the cave system... there's another cave-in there that prevents progress back up the D'ni Path. Basically, there's a whole section of the Path that's just missing and doesn't need to be built.

The natural cave system is going to need a fair degree of artificial illumination, either through Firemarbles, KI lights (don't leave the Shaft without one! ), or bio-luminescent plant life. I don't have any firm ideas for what this cave system should look like, so whoever ends up getting tasked with designing this part of the Descent is going to be relying a lot on photos of existing cave systems (I recommend Carlsbad Caverns for ideas... there's a reason Cyan went on a field trip there ).

The cave system finally re-joins the D'ni Path at the point marked "8" (]K-I[) on the map above, and from there continues until it reaches the room marked "5" (]-[). This is the entrance to the Lava Chamber, and I actually do have some solid ideas on what this should look like. The far wall (opposite where you come in when heading to D'ni) is fronted with a massive, polished black wall of stone, built by the D'ni. A notch roughly 10 feet tall is cut into the center, and an orange-tinted light illuminates the room from beyond. Carved into the wall around this doorway are various pictograms depicting the dangerous room that lies ahead, along with some D'ni text for the benefit of those who know the language that says essentially the same thing (the pictograms would have been for our benefit, since the surface dwellers intended to be on this path wouldn't have known D'ni). On the floor beside the doorway, there's a DRC-stamped box with some breathing aparati in it. They're decorative, not required, so as to give players a better idea of what's ahead. The path continues beyond this room in a solid green band, terminated in a semi-circular step of raised stone just before the wall.

The Lava Chamber should pretty much look like your typical awesome pocket of magma, with a sturdy-but-slender bridge spanning the room. The collapsed segment mentioned in BoA has been repaired by the DRC using somewhat less substantial materials, so there should be a visual difference in the bridge's appearance for the last span. The pathway should still be wide enough for two avatars to pass each other without colliding, but not be too much wider than that.

Now we get to the really impressive part: the Southern Gate. Since this was the physical gateway to the D'ni Empire, I want to make sure it's as visually impressive as possible (not necessarily busy-looking, but still interesting to look at). A huge, 20-foot-tall archway stands open in the middle of another black stone wall, ornamented on either side with illustrations of D'ni and its history (suplemented by D'ni text in places). The thick green stone of the Path terminates just beyond this wall in another semi-circular step, forming the base of a huge inlaid stone illustration on the floor. A book lays open, seemingly against the wall of the Gate, and a tree grows from its spine, branching out into the various locked doorways splitting off of the sides of the room. A golden arc (representing alternately the sun or the light of Yahvo that nourishes the Great Tree) sits atop the tree on the far side of the room, and a single ray of "light" from this arc traces its way straight down the Path as it continues out the far end of the room and on to D'ni.

From the Southern Gate, the Path continues pretty much unobstructed, but fairly linearly, until it reaches the small cave with a boat landing. A regularly-running ferry takes players from here to Ae'Gura as mentioned in other posts.

The look of the Path will probably be taken from the small segments we see in EoA connecting the Shaft to the Nodes at the top and bottom. Various decals should be used to add some extra damage to areas along the way, but I don't think it should be too damaged... the DRC did come through here already and clear out most of the mess, and the Path doesn't seem like it should have been quite as affected by the Fall as I think the novels made it out to be.

Anyway, that's the bulk of my design/layout thoughts. All told, I suspect the Descent should take someone roughly 30-75 minutes to traverse, depending on how much backtracking they have to do in the cave section, and how much they stop to poke around. It seems a lot bigger than I think it'll end up being, though that in no way reduces the amount of work that will need to be done to make it a reality . I'll probably provide more illustrations and labeled screenshots from EoA as time (and my computer's currently non-functional DVD drive) permits.

[Braggi]

Alahmnat, I have a question or two regarding the mechanics of the level design for your proposal (which I think is wonderfully detailed and will be fascinating to explore, btw.) Understand this is based on experiences with Uru: CC, however I suspect some of it will apply to the MOUL engine as well.

Were you envisioning this all as one connected level or would it be broken into smaller sections? If the former, how visually detailed do you intend it to be? (Personally, I'm hoping your answers are "several separate sections" and "very detailed." "Several sections" because that will chop up the graphics load into manageable bites for the player's computer and "very detailed" just because your plan doesn't call for half measures - which is only fitting.)

Assuming you you do have it divided into sections, what ideas did you have in mind for transitions from section to section? I'm really curious about this because there are probably several ways to handle transitions to section. Normally, Cyan did this by keeping areas smaller and providing linking books from place to place. However, the nature of the trip down doesn't permit the linking book short cut and, indeed, I think it would detract from the journey as you've planned it here.

The reason I mentioned Uru: CC is that there is a fan age with a maze of tunnels in it, very nicely done too. I do notice that in running it however, the computer gets a bit laggy due to the graphics load. The fan age does not have a tremendous amount of 3D objects in the tunnel system, as a side note. I'm running on a fast single core CPU, 3 GB of RAM and an older Radeon card with 256 MB of video RAM on it and I've not had that sort of problem in any other age so far.

By contrast, in EoA, the entire Great Shaft complex, from the caldera down to the very bottom is not laggy, as long as I disable shadows, anti-aliasing and ansiotropic filtering, so I may be concerned about nothing here.