Community Project: The Great Shaft

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DarK
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Re: Community Project: The Great Shaft

Post by DarK »

The stranger wrote:I insist the cleft should be personal.
On the flipside, the surface of the cleft could be public (Run up to the caldera, zandi's trailer etc), the actual cleft (the caves/fissure) been personally instanced with no access to the surface.

There would need to a few obvious changes to accommodate the change in layouts and how it would be instanced, but it merges the ideas of the great shaft decent and yeesha's cleft, giving the best of both worlds.
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Mac_Fife
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Re: Community Project: The Great Shaft

Post by Mac_Fife »

It seems to me that this thread has really progressed far beyond a "suggestion" :D - Perhaps GPNMilano, Alahmnat or some of the others with well developed ideas here should consider getting a "Great Shaft" forum set up in the "Projects and Proposals" section?
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Marten
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Re: Community Project: The Great Shaft

Post by Marten »

I'm going to spend some time trying to merge my ideas into GPNMilano's and Alahmnat's more smoothly, and take into consideration others' concerns and objections. I think to reach a solid agreement on what we'd like to see, it would help to define some specific rules or goals by which we can measure our ideas. Alahmnat set out such an approach in his instancing discussion, so I'm going to take the cue from him.

Pointer to my collected thoughts to follow later, after I've worked through them. 8-)
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Marten
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Re: Community Project: The Great Shaft

Post by Marten »

Here we go - my rethinking.

Descent - Another Way to D'ni

Over the past week, discussions have blossomed on OpenURU's forums regarding two topics near and dear to my heart (and apparently, to the hearts of several other prominent community members). One of those topics is this one, proposing a way to take the Descent. It really connects to how Uru really begins for a new player, and I think the whole thing needs to be thought through very carefully and methodically. This is my attempt to do so. I've changed a few things from my previous take on this matter, so I hope you'll read through completely.

5 Criteria

Before I launch into this topic, I feel it is important to set some ground rules. If I cannot specify my goals, then at the end of my proposal I have no way to measure whether my ideas improve upon the status quo. Note that some of these ground rules don't necessarily apply to the topic at hand, and are written more towards measuring solutions for other problems I hope to discuss in a similar manner soon.

Five criteria:

1. Existing resources are re-used. New resources introduced are minimal.

The world of D'ni is not being reinvented. I just want the world to "work better."

2. The player is not presented with too many choices and options at once. The player has an opportunity to learn before making choices.

As an example of rule 2, the initial user interface must be simple; complexity is added as the player becomes more familiar with the game. This idea already exists in the form of level0, level1, and level2 KIs. While I feel the level0 KI is so simple as to be painfully crippling, the basic concept of not overwhelming the beginning user with too much complexity is critical.

3. Constraints and rules shall be consistent and not seem arbitrary. This shall help to make the world believable.

When the player performs an action, the resulting reaction from the world or user interface should be fairly obvious, and it should make sense to the player. If one player sees another player perform an action, if the first player is not yet able to perform the action, it should be clear why.

4. Technology and magic should not mix, and Yeesha's abilities shall remain in the domain of Yeesha.

As an example of this problem, instancing of the worlds is supposed to be a Yeesha/Bahro ability. But the Nexus and KI system, with which Yeesha supposedly has not tampered, allows invitations to private Ages to be created and revoked. This does not make sense.

5. The player's navigation of the world and interface to accomplish goals should be simple, and generally at hand at all times.

That means while pulling private instances out of the Nexus and KI, the player's ability to generate inivitations at any time, from any place, should not be crippled. Another solution must be introduced that retains the necessariy flexibility.

Beginning and Cleft

I have see a good number of posts from community members who would like, or at least would not mind, if the beginning player was presented with an option to travel to D'ni by the Great Shaft. In some proposals, this path has become the only way into D'ni (Yeesha and Relto are removed). In Alamnat's proposal, Yeesha's way is still an option, but the player begins their way into the Great Shaft before Yeesha's journey is made available. The proposal I like the most, however, permits the user to make the choice close to the beginning of the game - Tweek's Concept - Uru Live Beginning.

Tweek's proposal begins with making the opening area of D'ni public. I happen to like this idea, and I'm not alone in that company. Others, however, hate the idea, and that position should not be ignored; Uru is a wonderful world and we want it to be inviting to many people. Many people still prefer to explore alone; Myst and Riven were solitary games, after all. So while a public cleft at the beginning may be more believable, I think it is necessary that we give players the choice to begin their visit privately. This question would appear after the player has completed customizing their avatar. "Would you like to begin your exploration alone or together?"

Players choosing "Alone" would begin the game in a privately instanced Cleft. This is a one-time thing; once this Cleft is "solved", players will not be able to return to the private cleft except as a reward for completing Yeesha's initial Journey. At the end of the Journey, players jump into the cleft in their Relto and visit the private Cleft, are able to link to the rainy private cleft, and are able to obtain the rain page. (The rain page button never activates at public Cleft.) Once this is done, players may invite others into their private Cleft (rainy or sunny) to play marker games or to drive around on the Zamboni. The only difference between the public and private clefts for the purposes of beginning the game is that players will have the ability to begin solo without interference by others.

Players choosing "Together" would begin the game in the publicly instanced Cleft. (This assumes that issues regarding the number of concurrent players in Cleft can be addressed. Cleft may need to have a population limit of some sort, and players wishing to visit Cleft may need to queue to enter if it is at the limit.)

For the public instance, we face a few problems touched upon by Tweek, although I feel he may have dismissed some issues a little too quickly.

Problem: Puzzles already being solved

The Cleft was not designed for multiplayer; it has breakable bridges so only the first person to break a bridge would ever get to see it fall. It has a windmill puzzle that affects several items that can only be used when the power is on - a water bucket, the imager, and two doors.

Tweek had suggested that the windmill simply stop moving periodically (the wind stops blowing). But this solution would put beginners on a time limit to complete tasks involving the powered cleft. Timers are not a good puzzle for a starting player. Further complicating the matter, a player could begin tasks with the windmill already powered on by another person, and then be confused when the power suddenly shuts off.

Having the windmill stop if all players have exited the Age doesn't work if Greeters are camped in the Cleft area to meet new visitors.

"Phasing" the windmill, so that one player may see it powered while another sees the windmill turned off, leaves the problem that players who have turned on the power can open doors and move the water bucket, but other players would see these things happen but be unable to perform the same actions. If we phase the doors and water bucket as well, that would work OK for the water bucket, but now one player could watch another player walk through a closed door. And furthermore, any phasing implemented needs to not confuse players too much; if players realize that they do not each see the same thing, now you've introduced new magic into the game experience, and that ability can only be attributed to Yeesha.

So, the windmill is a thorny problem. My proposal is to change the puzzle so that players will have to co-operate. Players in the public Cleft would encounter some puzzle tasks that must be completed with the power off. Tasks with the power in both states would need to be completed before advancing beyond the Cleft in any fashion other than being linked away by a friend. (If that happens, we must assume the friend knows what he or she is doing. We should resist the temptation to make books unshareable in Cleft.) My thought is this - the power in the Cleft would also operate a small fan in a vent leading from the cleft rooms up under the fence, out higher on the volcano. If the fan is running, players cannot proceed through the vent.

The other puzzle problems are the water bucket and the symbols on the imager. The water bucket must be in the "up" position to go through the vent. The symbols on the imager reset when the blue button is pressed. This is a little ugly, but it is effective.

Players who want to take Yeesha's path will find that the journey cloths are not initially present. Activating Yeesha's hologram will cause the journey cloths to appear for the player who activated the message; as Yeesha causes the first cloth to manifest, so then will the remaining cloths phase in as well. These players will want to turn on the power to begin their journey.

Players who wish to take the Descent through the Great Shaft will want to turn off the power to go through the vent and bypass the barbed wire fence. Tweek's idea for having Laxman leave a message on the Imager is workable with this, although the power would need to be on to view the message. My preference would be to have an introduction to the KI added elsewhere. However, unlike in myriad proposals, the fence won't be jumpable or have an open section. A button positioned on the far side of the fan allows a player in the vent to turn off the fan in order to return to the cleft; this prevents a player who has moved through the vent only to have the power turned on afterward from being trapped and unable to come back if he or she has a change of heart. Only one player can be in the vent at a time, and leaving the vent by either side will cause the fan to resume spinning if the power is on.

Players who enter the Tree to collect their Relto book will find that the door closes behind them; only one player can climb through the door at a time. Other players are barred from climbing through the open door while one person is already moving through the door. Also, the door will open from the inside if the player climbs up the ladder and tries to exit the tree... again, so that players don't feel trapped and committed to a course of action once they've gone through. This door is not affected by the power in the Cleft - it works on Yeesha magic and only works for someone who has touched all seven journeys.

From here forward, I see the Descent as being similar to how Tweek, GPNMilano, and Alahmnat have suggested it, with a KI dispenser being necessary to proceed any further than the top of the shaft, and with the path down to D'ni being segmented into parts with nexus registration points to make the journey faster for future visits.

Problem: What About Having No Relto Book?

Various solutions attempting to solve the problem of "No Relto Book" have relied upon the Bahro rescuing players (suggested by Tweek), or the KI acting with teleportation powers (suggested by Alahmnat). I do not like such solutions. I have a better idea - players who take the tunnels to D'ni collect a neighborhood book and place it on their hip, just as they would a Relto book. If we want to put this book into players' hands early on (out of concern for panic links in the Great Shaft) but we want players to complete the Great Shaft before journeying on to some places, then we solve that by adding a KI upgrade at the end of the Great Shaft journey, and lock some areas of D'ni to those who haven't upgraded the KI.

Players can use their neighborhood book to link back to their neighborhood at any time, and will do so automatically in a panic situation. However, in doing so, unlike with Relto, they'll drop the book. The book will sit on the ground or keep falling for a few moments - nobody will be able to take a book dropped in this manner - and then it will fade away, lost forever. In this way, authorized explorers carrying neighborhood books will share a little more in common with Atrus' experience when he jumped into the starry fissure on Riven.

Players who link back to neighborhood in this manner will need to pick up another book before journeying out again. This will be an automatic action; when the player links into the 'hood, they'll link in next to a stack of spare 'hood books and immediately pick one up.
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The stranger
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Re: Community Project: The Great Shaft

Post by The stranger »

Personally, I think bahro linking would be the best not-odd solution for panic linking with no book.
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Re: Community Project: The Great Shaft

Post by Erik »

Good ideas for the Cleft!

I like the idea of being able to drop 'hood books, but being able to link to the 'hood from D'ni does break the linking rules. And how should players return to the Shaft after they have panick-linked to the 'hood? I think new players shouldn't see any other place in D'ni, before they made it through the tunnels, found the entrance, and took the boat ride. It's a bit of a spoiler to suddenly place players in (a restricted version of) D'ni if they haven't made the full trip yet.
I don't know who wrote it (I guess Tweek or Alahmnat), but someone wrote about using the Eder Tomahns as checkpoints. What if you could pick up a Linking Book in the first Eder Tomahn that links you to a Nexus-like Age that let you link back to the first Eder Tomahn? So that when you have to panick-link, you aren't placed in D'ni suddenly, but you return to an earlier point. Just like the stack of 'hood books you proposed, there could be a stack of Linking Books in each Eder Tomahn. When you reach the second Eder Tomahn, you can exchange your Linking Book for one that allows you to return to the second Eder Tomahn. If one forgets to exchange his book, well, then he misses a checkpoint and has to redo a larger part in case of a panic link, but that's not a real problem. Perhaps Direbo (without bubbles) can be used again as a Nexus Age that holds the books to the Eder Tomahns.
One will receive its true home book at the end of the journey to D'ni. I don't know if this should be a 'hood book... This would be the most convenient, but as I said, it does break the Linking Rules... Having the Nexus as a personal book is an option as well, and it is a logical choice, because you can reach every place from the Nexus (just like Relto), but the Nexus is quite boring as a 'home Age'.

And another thing: how can players without a Relto Book access the Journey Ages? Would there be Linking Books in the Ae'gura Library?

And the last problem: there are two sunny Clefts, one with Zandi, and one without. I assume that one who entered D'ni through the shaft can always go back to do the Journey, so Zandi should be present if he returns. On the other hand, one who finished the Journey that wants to go back to the Cleft by going the shaft, should enter a Cleft without Zandi. And how would players that finished the Cleft get to the Cleft with Zandi to help new players? I guess the two sunny Clefts need to be merged somehow to solve this.
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Marten
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Re: Community Project: The Great Shaft

Post by Marten »

Good points.

I have to admit that upon re-reading my suggestion from yesterday, I'm not thrilled to propose that Cleft be changed in such a drastic way as to add a tunnel under the fence; I simply don't have a better solution for the windmill problem. I don't see any other way to fully reset the windmill puzzle in a logical way other than to encourage some players to close the braking mechanism to stop the spinning.

Regarding the 'hood book, and your replacement suggestions, that's a very good point and one I hadn't really thought about. I do recall that belford suggested we let go of worrying about intra-Age linking because Cyan broke the rule themselves and without attributing the rule-bending to Yeesha (Great Zero). And note that the Eder Tomahn idea still breaks the rule. ;) Nexus is the only real solution. I think we have to get away from the idea that the panic link is also one's home age. We only think of it that way because that's how Relto works. Using a nexus book at the hip should be viewed as an act of desperation - you're stuck and you need an escape to a safe place. Note: The player shouldn't encounter any panic link situations prior to picking up the KI and Nexus book, and the items should be picked up together.

I haven't thought through access to the Journey Ages by non-Journeying players, but yeah, I'd expect there would be some way there. Note that I also haven't addressed if there is any way to provide instancing to players who aren't using Relto. There's really no good solution for letting the public at large into a single Age without instancing because of the "already solved puzzle" problem. Some of the Journey ages require that earlier puzzles be undone to reach rewards later (usually a Journey cloth). But they're not consistent about that.

Finally, regarding Zandi, my intention was that he would be present at all times in the public cleft, present in the instanced cleft for a beginning player, and absent in the cleft (whether rainy or sunny) in the instanced cleft after the Journey is complete. Also of note: It would never rain in the public cleft.

This proposal could easily run afoul of the way Cyan wants players to view Yeesha; by forcing her ability to make rain into an instance only while making a public version of Cleft, it might reduce players' opinions of her. So, I do want to say that I'm just throwing out ideas here, and I'm not attaching my heart to any of them. A public cleft solution upon which we and Cyan can agree may be an unreachable goal. I wish I could think of a solution that I felt confident enough about to believe even Cyan would say "Yeah! Let's do that."
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Re: Community Project: The Great Shaft

Post by Erik »

Marten wrote:I haven't thought through access to the Journey Ages by non-Journeying players, but yeah, I'd expect there would be some way there. Note that I also haven't addressed if there is any way to provide instancing to players who aren't using Relto. There's really no good solution for letting the public at large into a single Age without instancing because of the "already solved puzzle" problem. Some of the Journey ages require that earlier puzzles be undone to reach rewards later (usually a Journey cloth). But they're not consistent about that.
Perhaps lessons could be drawn from Choru for that. If I'm not mistaken, there was no Relto back then (people started in Bevin), and instancing was done automatically. If you linked to an Age together, you would end up in the same instance, but if someone else linked to the Age, a new instance would be created. I don't know how this worked exactly, perhaps one of the earlier beta testers can explain this in detail and tell if this is a workable situation. It could be that it was just a temporary, inconvenient way of instancing so that beta testers could at least explore the Ages, but that it was never considered to be how things could work in the final game.
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Marten
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Re: Community Project: The Great Shaft

Post by Marten »

I'll follow up with more thoughts on instancing in Alahmnat's thread for that. 8-)
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The stranger
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Re: Community Project: The Great Shaft

Post by The stranger »

Here's my idea:

Dangerous situation BEFORE reaching "home" ('hood for autherized explorers, relto for journey followers) - panic linking to the public desert (what that is? description at my other post here). The panic linking will be done like that- you hear a bahro screetch and link out (very clever, I know).

Dangerous situation AFTER you reach "home"-

Autherized explorers: at "the last moment" (link out wall, I like to call it. An invisable "wall", the limit of the falling. Once you hit, you link out), the explorer take out of his hip a very small linking book (you don't see the book, your avatar simply appears to take something out of is hip), and links out. The book keeps falling, of course. You are linked back to 'hood. However, if you are in a place on earth, you can't use the books. So once again, you hear the bahro sctreetch and link out to the 'hood.

Journey followers: things are still regular. You use the relto book, link out to relto.

So now you may think: "but what about us poor auth explorers, who have no way to go back where we was after panic linking (no clothes), what do we do?!"

Easy solution. Save and Load options.

This option will be available at the inventory for both journey followers AND yeesha, all along the game.

"SAVE" let's you save the game.

It opens a manu, which has 2 options: "Save game" and "Delete last save"

With "save game", next time you start the game, you will arrive in the last place you saved at last time. All your progress in that placed is saved, too (which means that if you did more after you saved the game, this progress won't be added.

"delete last checkpoint" deletes the save as a checkpoint. It will appear in the "load" manu, but next time you start the game, you won't begin at this save. Which means ALL your progress is saved, as if you didn't saved at all.

"LOAD" let's you load saves.

There are 3 pics- of the the last 3 places you saved. Each has a different progress. Once choosing one, you will be back at that save point, with all the progress you made until you saved (and no progress after it).

Below it, "Panic link to Neighborhood" if you arrived at the 'hood and "Panic link to desert" if you didn't arrived at the 'hood yet. It will be available only for autherized explorers, in earth areas. You see, the linking books to the 'hood, which you carry with you, work as some sort of a relto book. However, following the rules of the art, they are working only on other ages, places wich are not earth. So how are you going to return to the 'hood, when there is NO place to panic link near by? with this option. However, it will only be available where it needs to be available. There are no obvious rules here- this is where logic thinking comes to action. Ae'gura won't have this option available, because it's a big open place. Players just need to walk around a bit until to come into the next panic link spot or linking book. Guild pubs won't have the option, because even though they don't have panic link spots, they are small, barely confusing (BARELY), and there should be ( ;) ) a nexus book there. On the other hand, the descent "cave maze" is confuzing, and there are no many panic linking spots or linking books around. This is where this option is available. You press it, and you avatar starts to get all confuzed, looking around. Before you notice- you hear a screetch, and linked to the 'hood, or desert if you are yet to arrive in the 'hood (notice that this option should be available at the maze, but not at the great shaft, where there are many chances to panic link. These are at the same "age", so this option should simply turn on and off according to location in the age).
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