Content Licensing

[branan]

Ah, yeah. That makes more sense.

I don't think this proposal hits on all those sorts of people - age creators can make their own loc files with no issues, after all. We just need translators and developers to be able to work on Cyan's existing stuff. I think having a couple H'uru devs (Hoikas and me), the GULP admin (OHB), and if we can get you or Mac (or both) to sign would be a good set for this one?

I suppose we could poke around some of the admins of current fan shards, but ultimately I think they're more consumers of what we'd be doing with this proposal, rather than direct stakeholders.

[OHB]

I also agree about the pipeline. Great idea.

As Deledrius is doing so much work on i18n/l10n, I'd like to make his sign-off required. Not sayin' there aren't other devs, but he's the one I work with the most on this. I want to see his sign-off.

[Mac_Fife]

I'd probably move the signatures to just above the horizontal rule, so it becomes part of the "letter", but I'm not too worried about that detail right this minute.

JW's concern about the localization focus maybe coloring Cyan's thinking is one I share, but I tried to make the preface and wrap-up enquiry point to a more all-encompassing scope, but maybe that isn't "in your face" enough? I'm not averse to listing the other application areas, maybe in the preface, or maybe better still at the foot of the "What the Community Needs to Continue" section.

I don't think this proposal hits on all those sorts of people - age creators can make their own loc files with no issues, after all. We just need translators and developers to be able to work on Cyan's existing stuff.

Well, that depends on whether you just want a license that allows the localization to be implemented or you want more. Age creators may well be unaffected by the specifics of this enquiry, but on the other hand they may want to be able to re-use textures and other artefacts in order to get some "continuity" with Cyan's content, so I guess they have a vested interest in the wider scope.

I'd like to see Deledrius sign this too, as the originator of the main text. I also think that a few "player" signatures wouldn't go wrong either - to show that the devs are trying to do something that the fans actually want and not just "we're doing this because we can".

Once this is sent in, please don't expect an immediate response: We might be lucky but I'd set my expectation in terms of weeks rather than days.

[Christian Walther]

I have signed, not because I’m directly involved with localization, but because I think requests such as this are needed and this is a good one.

On the subject of trimming (maybe I’m late – I don’t want to delay things, but I just didn’t have time up to now):

1. A permissive license that would allow us to copy, translate, and distribute all textual information available in Uru, currently located in the .loc files. This would legalize translations and allow their distribution, a necessary step to put all of the community's work into use.

When I first read it, I thought the part in italics was redundant (or at least overly wordy) and could be removed. On re-reading, I realize that it does contain some meaningful information, but maybe the fact that I didn’t immediately get it is an indication that it could be put more clearly? How about this:

This would legalize the translations already done by the community and allow their distribution.

JW's concern about the localization focus maybe coloring Cyan's thinking is one I share, but I tried to make the preface and wrap-up enquiry point to a more all-encompassing scope, but maybe that isn't "in your face" enough? I'm not averse to listing the other application areas, maybe in the preface, or maybe better still at the foot of the "What the Community Needs to Continue" section.

I think being a concrete example (and even a particularly good one because it shows how permission for modification can be a real benefit while steering clear of questions of artistic integrity) is the strong point of this request, and I’m not sure if it’s a good idea to add other points to it before we’re sure we have covered all of them. I thought the general feeling was that compiling a complete list was hard without having some idea of what Cyan’s thoughts are, and to gather that we’d run something specific like this by them first.

I would however suggest repeating the expression from the preface that we’re not asking for a solution yet, but just trying to get a process going, in the final question paragraph. Something like (additions in italics)

At this time, we would ask if Cyan are able to indicate what difficulties they forsee over the licensing of content; if there are particular aspects where Cyan are open to suggestions; if there are specific limitations which the fans should place on their aspirations for content licensing. We are not asking for a final solution for this specific case yet, but we are presenting a specific case in the hope that it will be helpful as a reference point on the collaborative path to a general solution.

[OHB]

I also think that a few "player" signatures wouldn't go wrong either - to show that the devs are trying to do something that the fans actually want and not just "we're doing this because we can".

93 people are currently participating to translate URU and they've done 24,027 translations. Surely that's a good-enough sign that the translators want this. If you really think it's necessary, I can send out an email asking for some of them to sign. But it's not like Cyan isn't aware of the efforts that have already gone in. I informed Cyan over a year ago, Mark called it "something that was needed" and I know Rand likes it too.

This request is basically a nice way of saying what has already been said: "Hey, we still need X and Y to finish localization, thanks."

And, it was brought up twice during Rand's interview @ Mysterium. They know this is coming.

Finally, I think there will always be a component of "doing this because we can". Isn't the goal to increase the appeal of URU in every way possible? Don't we get to take a little initiative in that area? We know there have been non-English speakers who've played URU in the past. They can't read the books about the kings, and frankly, while they want to be able to read them, I don't care. /I/ want them to be able to read them. And I want everyone who hasn't played URU because it isn't in their language to get a copy in their language so they can experience it too.

[Leonardo]

If you need to point Explorers' attention to this matter, just remember that AGM and the Second Anniversary Ceremonies will probably gather crowds, it would be a good moment for letting them know of this proposal and having their support. I think too that having the support of the average explorers (those who actually play in the Cavern and maybe are not so present of forums) is important; even better if we can have the support of entire groups/guilds. I can mention this during the AGM, unless someone else wants to come and speak (I know the H'Uru guys will be there but for something else).

large swaths of the community just aren't going to want to get involved in these sorts of things. We're not likely to see signatures from the New Greeters, or the Guild of Healers or the like.

If they don't even know of this proposal, we will never know if they'd support it. Let's just try and mention it to them.

I signed the proposal, as a translator and explorer.
It seems well written to me; maybe it would benefit of a couple of the suggestions made above (the one about "all GUIs" and the last one suggested by CW for the last line of the "What the Community Needs to Continue" paragraph), but generally it is already good.

[OHB]

...even better if we can have the support of entire groups/guilds...

I'll mention it to the GoG folks and see if Ja'de will approve a Guild signature.

[Mac_Fife]

This is all good stuff... I've incorporated the changes suggested by Christian and changed "all GUIs" to simply "the GUIs". I also moved the signatures to the foot of the "letter" section.

@OHB: Those metrics on the translations are impressive, but we're pitching to people that we have to assume don't have time go off looking up websites so we have to bring the pertinent info directly to them, which is why getting that few extra signatures is important (but at the same time, I'm not at all suggesting that you ought to try to get all 93 of your contributors to sign ). Also, we're probably not pitching to Rand - I think he's pretty much behind opening up as much as possible - but more to people like Tony who has his eye on the legal and commercial aspects and the overall "health" of Cyan Worlds.

Using the AGM to raise awareness sounds like a good idea - I guess we probably should have thought of that sooner. I think OU will be at the AGM (rarified probably has some things to say), and it sounds like GoW/H'Uru are attending, and I don't think it matters in the slightest which group/invidual wants to try to promote this, so whoever gets the first opportunity.

[JWPlatt]

Regarding signatures, I would definitely discourage mass solicitation like emails or something like a petition. I am calling for a representative sample of the community that is significant and recognizable to Cyan Worlds with enough signatures to make the letter legitimately a collective effort, but not attempt to overwhelm with numbers. And I hope those signatures all show an effort to participate in the issue - not just a token effort. I think Cyan will recognize that.

If it is mentioned at the AGM, it would be much better to make people aware of the discussion and leave out any mention of signatures. The people who are genuinely interested will find the letter from this discussion, participate, and sign it.

[Deledrius]

Regarding signatures, I would definitely discourage mass solicitation like emails or something like a petition. I am calling for a representative sample of the community that is significant and recognizable to Cyan Worlds with enough signatures to make the letter legitimately a collective effort, but not attempt to overwhelm with numbers. And I hope those signatures all show an effort to participate in the issue - not just a token effort. I think Cyan will recognize that.

If it is mentioned at the AGM, it would be much better to make people aware of the discussion and leave out any mention of signatures. The people who are genuinely interested will find the letter from this discussion, participate, and sign it.

I agree. It's probably better to show a strong group of active supporters than just a petition of general community support.