Content Licensing

[Christian Walther]

Looks good to me, good work on the language. I too was skeptical about packing more examples into it, but now that I see it it doesn’t look that bad. I agree with Deledrius, while this is different from what we had in mind, let’s do whatever gets the job done, and you obviously have more experience in that than any of us. There are a few places where I feel the effort to generalize has muddied a point that was expressed more clearly in the original document, maybe we can get that clarity back without sacrificing too much brevity and generality.

GULP (formerly the Uru Localization Project) has a database of translations in a large number of languages and has done development to allow non-US keyboards.

The way this is written, it is factually wrong – the keyboard development was not done by GULP, but IIRC by Hoikas, completely unrelated to GULP. What about “… and development on the engine has been done to allow non-US keyboards.”? Or maybe leave it out entirely for the sake of brevity.

Also, I’m missing a clear indication in this sentence that GULP has not just collected what was already there, but represents a lot of work on the part of fans. What about “… has a database of community-contributed translations …”?

This would legalize work already done by the community and enable its distribution and enjoyment.

This made more sense when it applied specifically to the translation work. When put this way, it is unclear what kind of work is meant, and I fear it might be counterproductively interpreted as referring to work that Cyan may be uncomfortable with (e.g. visible changes to their ages, such as those in the “City of Dimensions” on the TOC shard). What about “This would legalize for example the translation work already done by the community …”?

If that is impossible, the community would enjoy an alternative solution that allows any specific goal to modify and distribute existing files containing fixes or new features such as translatable GUI items.

This sentence is incomprehensible. I don’t even understand enough of it to suggest an alternative. Could you reword it?

The representative community members who sign below collaborated in a uniquely cooperative effort to discuss and contribute to this letter of many authors.

“Uniquely cooperative” sounds like self-praise. Leave it away.


Another example where inability to modify the content forces us to make inferior workarounds in the code could be this recent commit:

Band-aid for poorly modelled stairs
Looks like the Cyan modellers didn't extend the stair ramps all the way
down in some places. To compensate, we can now take higher steps but can't
walk on slopes quite as steep as before. I think this should balance out
nicely.

Under “Derivation”, since you already mention the unlicensed KI source, you could mention efforts to improve the usability of the KI, for example by adding scrollbars. This is not a “successful community project” to date as far as I’m aware, but it might become one.

I added a question. Are there too many now? Or is that good?

Looks OK to me. It’s a good question, and they can still ignore it if they feel unable to answer it. At 4 questions I think we’re not overwhelming them yet.

How long should we wait?

In general, a good period for compatibility with my real life is one week, or at least any time span including a full weekend. Others may find that too slow. Irrelevant in this context now since I have hereby made my comments. At any rate, I would try to get the explicit consent of anyone who already signed, since this is a significant change from the document they signed.

[JWPlatt]

Excellent, Christian. I agree with almost all that, especially where it cuts down on my own word count and gets rid of things I even said "Hmmm" to myself about as I wrote them. Very nice. The original wording about the keyboards seemed to claim some GULP credit there beyond h'uru - I wasn't sure it was entirely about h'uru's own unicode work. Thanks for clearing that up. My exceptions would be that I don't know enough about the stairs to word it myself and I'd rather not go beyond four Examples bullet points, so putting it under Derivation is nice. Can it be incorporated in one reasonable sentence?

You both say it's different, but most of the work was adding the intro paragraph, bullet points in addition to the existing localization, reorganizing existing words, and more minor edits for grammar and brevity. I did retain the content otherwise. Also, before I commit to the wiki, I'm waiting to see whether mostly everyone says my contribution is a piece of junk or mostly everyone likes the edits.

Especially to Deledrius, this wouldn't be in the good shape it is without you having considered the entire discussion to lay the foundation for the format and language and put it in motion. We are able to see things more clearly from your efforts, making the work and motivation for the rest of us a lot easier. Without community participation, I doubt I'd be doing this.

Finally, if you have not subscribed to this thread or put the wiki page on your watch list, I recommend that you do so that you do not miss any other possible edits from the community.

[Hoikas]

First glance read looks good, but I'm a bit rushed right now. When I get back to the remote battle station, I'll elaborate on the stairs and my other thoughts

[Leonardo]

Initially I feared that taking the proposal to a general context would have created a big and complex document, but now that I can read it I think it is fine, and I'm glad we can start the discussion with Cyan from a global point of view rather than a particular case.

[Hoikas]

I like this new revision very much. I am not much of an editor, so I'll pass on that. I trust that you guys will be able to work out those issues. I am very glad that we have JWPlatt on board since he has experience in communicating in a way that the business parts of Cyan will enjoy.

What I can do is give you details on some content issues that I've run into in fixing the game to work better with newer versions of PhysX. I will provide some screenshots with the physical proxies enabled. This will show us the meshes that PhysX is using to determine kickable and collision behaviors. Colliders will appear as yellow, detector regions are blue, and kickables are red. I hope you're able to nicely condense this down to a few sentences

Spoiler

This is an example of the "stairs" issue that CW mentioned. In MOULa, this stairwell "just works" however in open source builds with PhysX 2.6.4, it does not. You'll note that the ramp over the stairs is a good foot above the level ground. This causes the avatar to get stuck on the 90 degree angle between the two planes--you have to actually jump over that angle before you can start running up the stairs. Stairwells that "just work" on open source builds have ramps that extend all the way down to the ground plane.

That particular stairwell is in Er'cana (that age has several that are bad). There are others in Ae'gura and one in Kirel according to my limited testing.

Spoiler

This is somewhat related in that we have box-shaped colliders creating a 90 degree angle with the ground. These are the rocks at the Ferry Terminal in Ae'gura... You can't climb over them because they are too high. I could not justify to myself making the step fudge factor high enough to account for these colliders because as we increase the step size, we make it even harder to kick small kickables (firemarbles, objects in the Teledahn slave cave).

Spoiler

I have done extensive work on the kickables and fixed the bugs that caused them to shoot off into space and not move at all--to the extent that all of the random objects in Teledahn work nearly as well in PotS. Unfortunately, it seems that someone decided to mess up the cone collision mesh. As a result, the cones do some sort of possessed somersault in front of you as the avatar kicks it. Also, the sliding sounds are too loud (about 3x louder than the impact sounds), so pushing a cone makes a really annoying noise in my development branch... The other physicals sound good though.

--------

TL;DR: Collision meshes are broken, we must fix them!

[JWPlatt]

I have implemented all of Christian Walther's suggestions within my earlier post except the stairs. What I added is colored red. What I deleted is struck through.

viewtopic.php?p=5585#p5585

I hate to not use Hoikas's stairs considering the effort he went through to explain it - much appreciated. Now that I understand better, I think the basic point about the .prp files has already been well made throughout the document, and specifically with the "Improvements" bullet point about Ahnonay Cathedral which is a major case of inconsistent user experience. I think a second example is redundant. If anyone can explain why the stairs add something new, we can add it in with something like "We need a license to fix broken collision meshes and kickables for everyone," probably added to "Improvements."

I mangled and lost the context of Deledrius's last sentence of "Community Needs" which Christian rightly called incomprehensible. Deledrius's sentence was worded better. I've removed most of my part of that sentence and removed the "solution" phrase because we're not trying to offer solutions yet.

Statistics: 16 words removed; 16 words added; 2 clarifications; 2 significant points added; 1 mangled sentence restored to its former glory, more concisely.

[Ricard]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I have been following with interest your discussion here in this topic along with your continuing work at hammering out your "Localization Licensing Request ". I would like to offer you some small assistance with this project in a way that perhaps you can all benefit from my own expertise and experience in similar matters. I have been a motion picture and television producer for my entire career. I have worked countless times as a coordinating producer in charge of obtaining rights, permissions, and licenses to use proprietary materials in derivative entertainment works. My work always concerned requesting such permissions from actors, technicians, writers, directors, and other artists in movies, but I'm quite sure that the same professional approach that I used in those situations would be appropriate to the task that you are setting out to accomplish here.

May I suggest these ideas for your consideration:

First, this proposal should be properly addressed to Cyan Worlds, Inc. from, or "on behalf of" some person, or entity that represents all of you who have signed the document. Please remember, as you yourselves have often pointed out here in the discussion, Cyan is a company. It is a business. The executives and employees of Cyan, no matter how friendly and personally familiar they are with you, can only properly respond to and take action on your proposal as representatives of the Company.

Therefor, I recommend that you submit your proposal in a correct business form. Name yourselves something as a group. (For example, "Interests of the Open Source Uru Community", or you may choose for example to be represented by Mac and "OpenUru.org" speaking on your behalf) Your letter should be sent to Cyan from the entity you choose to be members of and originate from that one of you chosen as your spokesperson.

I suggest that each of you sign the document properly. Your avatar names alone are not an appropriate or professional method of identification. Cyan can not acknowledge a document like this one from anonymous contributors. Each "signature" on the document should follow your avatar name with your correct proper name, your real world location, and your affiliation (shard, website, profession, hobby interest, etc.) or reason for your concern with the project. You should each include your email address so that Cyan can properly respond to each of the signatories. (These signature block details need NOT be publicly displayed with the document. They are not for us in the fan community, but for Cyan. Your privacy is always appropriate. Your professionalism is required.)

Those are my "two cents". Good luck.
I wish you success.
"r'Ricard" ~ Rodney Recor

[Mac_Fife]

First, this proposal should be properly addressed to Cyan Worlds, Inc. from, or "on behalf of" some person, or entity that represents all of you who have signed the document.

I think that's a given.

Name yourselves something as a group. (For example, "Interests of the Open Source Uru Community", or you may choose for example to be represented by Mac and "OpenUru.org" speaking on your behalf)

I think that's also (almost) a given. I think it's important to emphasize the community nature of the interest here, so I think "OpenUru.org" is too narrow an entity for identification, and it's probably more accurate to think of OpenUru.org as a facilitator: "OpenSource Uru Community" seems better and more inclusive. Given that JW Platt has an established professional relationship with Cyan through the collaboration with Creative Kingdoms on Magiquest Online, I'd suggest he's best placed to be the spokesperson.

Both of the above are things I'd been considering as "final titivations" in formatting up for presentation.

I suggest that each of you sign the document properly. Your avatar names alone are not an appropriate or professional method of identification. Cyan can not acknowledge a document like this one from anonymous contributors.

This is perhaps the only point I'd really question, and it kind of relates to the Facebook/Google+ "Real Name" policies: In many cases "identity" and reputation is established through forum usernames and that real names add little or no weight to the case. Cyan has a history of dealing with it users in a IC biased manner, and IIRC even NDAs and FCALs have been agreed and issued against forum names, rather than real names. I know you're suggesting that real names should be a private addition to forum names in the letter,but I'm not sure that it adds as much as you believe - Again, I'd probably to defer to JW's opinion here.

[OHB]

I suggest that each of you sign the document properly. Your avatar names alone are not an appropriate or professional method of identification. Cyan can not acknowledge a document like this one from anonymous contributors.

This is perhaps the only point I'd really question...In many cases "identity" and reputation is established through forum usernames and that real names add little or no weight to the case. Cyan has a history of dealing with it users in a IC biased manner, and IIRC even NDAs and FCALs have been agreed and issued against forum names, rather than real names...

Not to mention that a lot of us already have relationships with Rand, RAWA, Tony, Mark, etc. By in large, everyone already knows each other.

[JWPlatt]

Right. Cyan Worlds collectively is familiar with all these people. This isn't like a pitch to a studio where you are going in cold and trying to convince a group of strangers. Many of us have personally known Cyan Worlds staff for years. That said, it might give the document some added weight and professionalism. Tony, the person where the buck stops in this issue, does not seem to track the community as closely as the others. I do think we should all include our most closely held affiliation (OU, GoW, H'uru, GoMe, etc, using the full domain name) to give evidence of our unity on this issue. What do you think of giving each person the option to provide real name and/or address and/or email with their forum name? Or should it be all persons, if any, and not just individually? Emails are probably less important. Replying to individual persons through email is probably too much of a time strain on Cyan Worlds to expect any response other than to a single point of contact.

Thanks, Ricard! We've been working on the body, so your attention to the head and foot are appreciated.

On matters of the body, I really appreciate the positive reactions to my contribution to the document. I will commit the changes to the wiki within two days.