Community Project: The Great Shaft

[Alahmnat]

Alahmnat (has there always been an 'n' in your name?! I just noticed it for the first time, always thought it was Alahmat anyway...), I think your entire plan (and that of Tweek, etc.) is great, except for one hole. On the off chance that one doesn't pick up a Yeesha book or a KI, what happens when a panic link is needed? In that case, there's nothing we can use to explain the avatar simply disappearing.

Yeah, my name's always had an N in it .

One of the key components of my particular plan is that you can't get out of the Cleft area until you've picked up a KI. If you leave the game without doing so and come back, you'd be started back in the Cleft again. There should be no circumstance under which doing anything in the Cleft would require a panic link (as is already the case, since the whole place needs to be explorable without a Relto Book at your side the first time 'round), and access to all other areas where panic linking may occur is controlled by requiring the player to have a KI before being allowed to use the Nexus Book at the top of the Descent to proceed:

The Nexus Pedestal in the room has a covering on it that only opens after registering the terminal with your KI, ensuring that players have the KI before proceeding into the game (given how important the KI is to most activities, not having such a basic component of gameplay before leaving this "newbie" area seems kind of dumb... even players who want to follow Yeesha are going to need one to interact with numerous elements of the game).

I should perhaps more explicitly state that after using the Nexus Book, the covering closes back up, so the next player approaching the pedestal has to use their KI to open it again . If the newbie area starts developing a bottleneck at this spot (something to look for if this ever gets to the testing phase), adding more KI-restricted Nexus pedestals to either the room or the hallway outside would probably not be a bad idea.

[GPNMilano]

I should perhaps more explicitly state that after using the Nexus Book, the covering closes back up, so the next player approaching the pedestal has to use their KI to open it again . If the newbie area starts developing a bottleneck at this spot (something to look for if this ever gets to the testing phase), adding more KI-restricted Nexus pedestals to either the room or the hallway outside would probably not be a bad idea.

Or in the alternative, you could simply disable clicking on the Nexus book if the user does not have their KI through the python script. OR, rather than a Nexus Pedestal near the KI machine, it can be in the first of Descent's nodes, and access to the shaft is via the first node in descent, whose door is controlled in a method similar to the Gahreesen Doors.

[TomahnaGuy]

Wow. I love this idea and share the dream, it's just I have a couple of questions:

1) Will the trip beyond descent be modelled with permission of Cyan textures and models to assist with this?

2) How are the cut scenes going to happen? Similiar to how linking panels are going to be made over at the GoW or different?

I can see that it'll take an insane amount of work, but if Cyan textures could be used that'd be helpful and I'd also be glad to contribute in any way possible.

[zib_redlektab]

Or in the alternative, you could simply disable clicking on the Nexus book if the user does not have their KI through the python script. OR, rather than a Nexus Pedestal near the KI machine, it can be in the first of Descent's nodes, and access to the shaft is via the first node in descent, whose door is controlled in a method similar to the Gahreesen Doors.

The first idea here would be simpler indeed, no extra modelling or anything would be required, but it would be kind of lame/unrealistic IMO. Having it there, but unclickable would probably just be confusing for new players.

I like the idea of the node doors being accessible via KI, since it seems like that's probably how they would have worked in D'ni (only those with high enough KI clearance can open the node doors, good way to control immigration? ). However, couldn't the node door be opened by one person and held open while KI-less people run through? If we somehow limit this, then it would probably cause a bottleneck as the door opens and closes for each person... Not to mention that this method seems like it would be harder to do than the covered pedestal...Still, probably the coolest option.

I suppose we really don't need to worry about people not picking up a KI, especially if we put in a sign or something (or have a greeter hanging out there), but by Murphy's law we're going to have lots of people stuck in the Nexus without a KI unless we take these things into account

Also, to TG: the linking panels are all pre-rendered videos, so I doubt (I hope) that the cutscenes can be done like that. I think the way we'd do cutscenes is to have a subworld for the ferry that freezes the avatar until the journey is over, along with some fancy cameras and music. Shouldn't be too hard, I hope

[Alahmnat]

Wow. I love this idea and share the dream, it's just I have a couple of questions:

1) Will the trip beyond descent be modelled with permission of Cyan textures and models to assist with this?

2) How are the cut scenes going to happen? Similiar to how linking panels are going to be made over at the GoW or different?

I can see that it'll take an insane amount of work, but if Cyan textures could be used that'd be helpful and I'd also be glad to contribute in any way possible.

1) Hopefully, if we get permission to go ahead with this (which would be the only way I'd be comfortable going ahead with it at all), we can re-use some of the existing assets (like from EoA perhaps) under some form of license, which would save on production time and ramp the initial production value considerably, but if we have to build everything from scratch, I don't think it'll be a massive hindrance. Of course, I'd like to see Cyan release at least a few models and textures that get used a lot in Uru, like Nexus pedestals, cones, railing patterns, etc. so that there's a degree of consistency throughout the game regardless of the developer.

2) My plan for the cutscenes was to use the same method already in place for things like the Teledahn bucket ride, or the Kadish pillar room solution, where the game takes control of the camera and possibly the avatar to perform a scripted animation in real time (as opposed to pre-rendered), with sound and music to match. There used to be something like this in Gahreesen, too, where rather than manually flailing at the crumbled wall between the first and second floors of the Well building, there was a nice animation of the avatar climbing up the slope. Still have no idea why that was taken out, to be honest, and it was requested endlessly from then on throughout the Ubiru beta.

[GPNMilano]

Of course, I'd like to see Cyan release at least a few models and textures that get used a lot in Uru, like Nexus pedestals, cones, railing patterns, etc. so that there's a degree of consistency throughout the game regardless of the developer.

Probably should be a point to note that Cyan, has already given permission to the fans to use any existing cavern textures (IE Textures that appear in the City, Hoods and Cavern locations) in their models. Chogon pmed several people from both the Guild of Maintainers, and Guild of Writers, and informed him that he and RAWA had discussed the issue, this was the reply sent to one of those people from Chogon:

Hi Andy,

Sorry it took so long to reply.

I talked to Rich (aka RAWA) and he said: "Continuity-wise, I would prefer them to use our textures for the cavern specifically for the reasons given here, but I don't know if that throws up any red flags for the "legal department"."

Which I replied with: as long as the textures are only used in Uru and MORE fan created ages and artwork. In other words, only used with the plasma engine (MORE, ULM, etc.) within the FCAL agreement (not for commercial use, etc.).

Thanks,
Mark

And this:

Also, if any Cyan assets are used in building this age, we do stipulate that these assets can only be used with the plasma engine for fan create ages (i.e. MORE, ULM, etc.).

Obviously none of this means we can just start on the project, but at the same time, my thoughts are if Cyan gives us the go ahead for the project, either with the use of the EOA material, or from start, they generally will approve of the use of their textures and sounds in building it, as they already have given approval to use them in fan ages anyway to reduce issues with continuity.

2) My plan for the cutscenes was to use the same method already in place for things like the Teledahn bucket ride, or the Kadish pillar room solution, where the game takes control of the camera and possibly the avatar to perform a scripted animation in real time (as opposed to pre-rendered), with sound and music to match.

The only problem I have with this is that with those two examples, and the others in Uru, there isn't the perspective issue you will have an animation of the Ferry Ride. When leaving the South Gate for instance, you'll see the city in the distance, and it will be quite small. (As it is from looking at it from Kirel and Bevin, which are generally the same distance from the city as the South Gate, as they reside along the same cavern wall) Upon approaching the City, perspective demands that it get larger and larger. While your previous location gets smaller. It's not a deal breaking position obviously, but meticulous care will have to be taken in designing both the south gate, and the "fake" 3D model of the city that one will sail to, to make sure that the perspective of both are correctly matched up so that when you sail away, or to either of these places it looks realistic.

[TomahnaGuy]

The only problem I have with this is that with those two examples, and the others in Uru, there isn't the perspective issue you will have an animation of the Ferry Ride. When leaving the South Gate for instance, you'll see the city in the distance, and it will be quite small. (As it is from looking at it from Kirel and Bevin, which are generally the same distance from the city as the South Gate, as they reside along the same cavern wall) Upon approaching the City, perspective demands that it get larger and larger. While your previous location gets smaller. It's not a deal breaking position obviously, but meticulous care will have to be taken in designing both the south gate, and the "fake" 3D model of the city that one will sail to, to make sure that the perspective of both are correctly matched up so that when you sail away, or to either of these places it looks realistic.

That sounds like an awful lot of work, however, you could always use the camera modifiers to make the camera rise as the boat moves along or have the camera tracking the boat. Alternatively, there could be a black part about half way through the journey to load one area over the other. Hopefully implementation of the camera won't be too hard.

As for the textures - I remember seeing that Chogon message and I'm hoping they'll feel as lenient with lending us the M5 textures and perhaps those necessary models under the same guidelines as before of course.

[Alahmnat]

Probably should be a point to note that Cyan, has already given permission to the fans to use any existing cavern textures (IE Textures that appear in the City, Hoods and Cavern locations) in their models. Chogon pmed several people from both the Guild of Maintainers, and Guild of Writers, and informed him that he and RAWA had discussed the issue

Well, that's good to hear. You're right, it's not exactly the blanket permission we'd need, but it gets us pretty far along with some of the heavy lifting .

2) My plan for the cutscenes was to use the same method already in place for things like the Teledahn bucket ride, or the Kadish pillar room solution, where the game takes control of the camera and possibly the avatar to perform a scripted animation in real time (as opposed to pre-rendered), with sound and music to match.

The only problem I have with this is that with those two examples, and the others in Uru, there isn't the perspective issue you will have an animation of the Ferry Ride. When leaving the South Gate for instance, you'll see the city in the distance, and it will be quite small. (As it is from looking at it from Kirel and Bevin, which are generally the same distance from the city as the South Gate, as they reside along the same cavern wall) Upon approaching the City, perspective demands that it get larger and larger. While your previous location gets smaller. It's not a deal breaking position obviously, but meticulous care will have to be taken in designing both the south gate, and the "fake" 3D model of the city that one will sail to, to make sure that the perspective of both are correctly matched up so that when you sail away, or to either of these places it looks realistic.

Couple things on this point:

First, it wasn't my intention to have a cutscene that lasted through the entire trip from the edge of the Cavern to Ae'Gura... that's almost an hour of travel time according to the novels (it might take a little less time in a large communal boat that moves more quickly, but not enough less time, I think). My intention was to do a sweeping reveal of the Cavern when the boat first embarked from the pier, then fade to black rather quickly and jump-load everyone on the boat into the City (obviously, the capacity of the boat will have to be balanced with how many people can be "linking" into the City without destroying the game, but I'm sure some balance can be attained). There wouldn't be much of a need for fancy perspective-bending tricks, because the camera wouldn't be tracking across the lake all that much in the first place.

Second, and I hate to do this but I'm a real stickler for accuracy (which is probably something we're going to need to be extra careful about if we're allowed to do this)... the Southern Gate is just before the lava chamber if you took the Descent "backwards" up to the Volcano. That puts it a good several miles from the Cavern itself. I do most definitely want to build the Southern Gate as part of the Descent (and I have a really nice picture in my head of what that whole region should look like), but the departure point for Ae'Gura is not the same place .

Finally, and this is something I've been waffling on doing with Uru at all (the ideas I had for building a new MMO in D'ni would definitely have done this, but since we're still dealing with Uru, I'm not so sure): Ae'Gura is too small given the other information we have about the size of the Cavern in other canon literature. The Cavern itself is only a few miles across in either direction, and Ae'Gura is a pretty substantial piece of architecture, but it's virtually impossible to see from any other location in the Cavern. This doesn't really make any sense... look at a city skyline from a couple of miles away and it's still pretty large in your field of view. Unless the Cavern has magically quadrupled in size from its stated dimensions in canon, the difference in scale doesn't compute in my head.

According to a couple of Choru alpha testers, this wasn't always the case; Ae'Gura used to be a LOT larger when seen from the neighborhoods (picture hopefully forthcoming), and Cyan's own concept art published in the Uru:CC Prima Guide shows what it would've looked like from the lake. Oddly, even MOUL has a reference to Ae'Gura's former scale. The intro video, during Yeesha's first "alone or together" statement, shows Ae'Gura dominating the Cavern, with the City Proper in the background. The clip they used there is actually from the ancient promo video that Cyan put together to try and get some venture capital for Uru, and it's what want to replicate in this proposal. In a perfect world, we could go back to the old scale of Ae'Gura in the Cavern (which I think would be more impressive than it being a speck out on the lake somewhere), but I don't know how many people (including Cyan) would actually go for re-redefining the Cavern that way.

[GPNMilano]

First, it wasn't my intention to have a cutscene that lasted through the entire trip from the edge of the Cavern to Ae'Gura... that's almost an hour of travel time according to the novels (it might take a little less time in a large communal boat that moves more quickly, but not enough less time, I think). My intention was to do a sweeping reveal of the Cavern when the boat first embarked from the pier, then fade to black rather quickly and jump-load everyone on the boat into the City (obviously, the capacity of the boat will have to be balanced with how many people can be "linking" into the City without destroying the game, but I'm sure some balance can be attained). There wouldn't be much of a need for fancy perspective-bending tricks, because the camera wouldn't be tracking across the lake all that much in the first place.

Ahhh... I see. Yes thats quite doable then.

Second, and I hate to do this but I'm a real stickler for accuracy (which is probably something we're going to need to be extra careful about if we're allowed to do this)... the Southern Gate is just before the lava chamber if you took the Descent "backwards" up to the Volcano. That puts it a good several miles from the Cavern itself. I do most definitely want to build the Southern Gate as part of the Descent (and I have a really nice picture in my head of what that whole region should look like), but the departure point for Ae'Gura is not the same place .

BY southern gate I was assuming you meant the ferry terminal/boat landing one would find when reaching the cavern itself. My mistake.

Finally, and this is something I've been waffling on doing with Uru at all (the ideas I had for building a new MMO in D'ni would definitely have done this, but since we're still dealing with Uru, I'm not so sure): Ae'Gura is too small given the other information we have about the size of the Cavern in other canon literature. The Cavern itself is only a few miles across in either direction, and Ae'Gura is a pretty substantial piece of architecture, but it's virtually impossible to see from any other location in the Cavern. This doesn't really make any sense... look at a city skyline from a couple of miles away and it's still pretty large in your field of view. Unless the Cavern has magically quadrupled in size from its stated dimensions in canon, the difference in scale doesn't compute in my head.

Remember though, according to RAWA there actually is no other "canon" literature other than Uru. RAWA has stated that any alterations between the books, and games are artistic changes done by their creators and writers, while what we see in Uru is the real depiction of D'ni.

According to a couple of Choru alpha testers, this wasn't always the case; Ae'Gura used to be a LOT larger when seen from the neighborhoods (picture hopefully forthcoming), and Cyan's own concept art published in the Uru:CC Prima Guide shows what it would've looked like from the lake. Oddly, even MOUL has a reference to Ae'Gura's former scale. The intro video, during Yeesha's first "alone or together" statement, shows Ae'Gura dominating the Cavern, with the City Proper in the background. The clip they used there is actually from the ancient promo video that Cyan put together to try and get some venture capital for Uru, and it's what want to replicate in this proposal. In a perfect world, we could go back to the old scale of Ae'Gura in the Cavern (which I think would be more impressive than it being a speck out on the lake somewhere), but I don't know how many people (including Cyan) would actually go for re-redefining the Cavern that way.

Actually that image, alterted a little so that it looks nicer in game, is found in Uru as it is now. It's the backdrop for the Great Tree Pub and Guild Pubs. Why it's used there and no other place is more than likely because of the models in the lake, in both hoods. In order for it to not look "fake" Cyan rather than putting the background across the sky dome for these areas, chose to remove the city completely. And build models of islands etc, that would serve as the stand ins. They then textured them with a gold rock material, while using the altered background as their skydome. This achieves the look of the city in the distance appearing 3D. Eeven though, perspective wise, given the distance between the City and the hoods, it should be much bigger as you noted above. Taken from in game measurements of the GZ, the city should appear bigger.

[Alahmnat]

This and this are what I'd like to go back to. I don't know exactly why Cyan de-awesomeified the Cavern walls and Lake imagery rather than investing in higher-quality versions of the stuff in these shots, because these are far more interesting IMO than what we have right now.

(I'd post a still from the MOUL intro as well, but stills don't seem to be as easy to visually interpret as the actual video clip... suffice it to say, I think doing these images up with better-quality textures, skydomes, and full-on 3D models of Ae'Gura would be easy enough to do, especially since some of the texture-based improvements from the EoA version of Plasma were back-ported for MOUL.